Finnish language questions

[Humppaporo]

Since there are so many members trying to learn Finnish, and also many Finnish members, i think it might be useful to have a thread for 'burning questions' about this beautiful but difficult language.

My first question is:

What is the difference between ympäri and ympärillä ?

F.e, why can you say: 'Istumme tulen ympärillä' and not ' Istumme tulen ympäri'?

(examples are always helpful)

[frostheim]

humppaporo said:

What is the difference between ympäri and ympärillä ?

Ympäri:
> Going/getting around something; to go by/via something.

Ympärillä:
> Being/doing something around/close to something.

"Ympäri" is more clearly bound to movement, whereas "ympärillä" can mean that you're for example sitting/being still around something or dancing/eating/walking/acting otherwise around something etc. "Ympärillä" can also stand for more continuous action around something in question, whereas when you go "ympäri" of something, you just eg. go around something and come back but it's not evident or clear if you'll do that again, although even then you'd go only "ympäri". When you then decide to make the action for "ympärillä", then you go close to the fire and eg. sit/act there close to it, especially with a group that has gathered around the fire from every direction.

humppaporo said:

F.e, why can you say: 'Istumme tulen ympärillä' and not ' Istumme tulen ympäri'?

Istumme tulen ympärillä:
> "We're sitting around the fire." (correct)

* Istumme tulen ympäri:
> "We sit the fire to be 'around'." => "We're sitting so that the fire would be/get around something." (no sense)

But:

Kuljemme tulen ympäri:
> "We're walking around the fire (we're just more into passing it by going around it)."

Tanssin/tanssimme tulen ympärillä:
> "I'm/we're dancing around the fire (acting around fire from all directions for a longer time till the process is over)."


But then also:

Puhun sinut ympäri: (idiom)
Direct translation: "I'm talking you 'around'."
Meaning: "I'm talking to you for getting you to change your mind concerning something that we're having different opinions about."

[Humppaporo]

Thank you so much for this excellent explanation
It is crystal clear now

[Humppaporo]

I have one more question:

Is there any difference in meaning , or in use between for example:

minä autan sinua maalaamisessa

and

minä autan sinua maalaamaan
?

[HerraHirwi]

humppaporo said:

minä autan sinua maalaamisessa

This is how you say when you're helping someone during the painting process.

humppaporo said:

minä autan sinua maalaamaan

This is how you say when you're helping someone to do the whole painting operation from the start to the end. You can use this, when the painting process is so enormous that one simply can't do it all by himself/herself. Minä autan sinua maalaamaan taloa (= I help you to paint the house) for example.

[Humppaporo]

Selvä!

Thanks!!

It is so great to get such useful answers
Finnish language has so many nuances, hard to get for us foreigners.

[Xetee]

I have a short question:

The meaning of the word "Väkivaltakunta" (yep, it's a song by Stam1na)


I searched in a dictionary the word Väkivalta, and it means 'Violence" (right?)...but the word 'Kunta'...as the dictionary says....it has many meanings sooo....what does it mean?


Thanks in advance!

[frostheim]

xete91 said:

I have a short question:

The meaning of the word "Väkivaltakunta" (yep, it's a song by Stam1na)


I searched in a dictionary the word Väkivalta, and it means 'Violence" (right?)...but the word 'Kunta'...as the dictionary says....it has many meanings sooo....what does it mean?


Thanks in advance!

Ah, that's a quite nice word play where two compound words of completely different kind of meanings have been "melted" together:
> väkivalta = violence
> valtakunta = kingdom

[Humppaporo]

I passed the answers i got here on to my teachers. One of them has also a question that she would like to ask (to make it easier for us to understand). She was impressed by the accuracy of the answers here.

She wants to know about a general rule for the use of illatiivi in time-expressions. (not in negative expressions, that is clear)
So, when do you use illatiivi and when not.

some examples: siihen aikaan, tähän aikaan, isoisän aikaan... etc

[Humppaporo]

Tonight we were talking about the Finnish language, and my daughter asked if it was possible to write something in a sarcastic way.

Like saying: "oh, how beautiful" about something really ugly.

or something else, like saying (mocking, joking): "you are a toothless, old bitch" to someone, without meaning anything of it.

Since Finnish is really very nuanced and has conjugations etc. for almost everything, we wondered if it is possible to express this in written Finnish.
When writing, you have no other means of expression than just the words and maybe the word-order.


*and please take a look at my former question, if someone knows the answer, i (and my fellow students) would be really grateful!

[frostheim]

humppaporo said:

She wants to know about a general rule for the use of illatiivi in time-expressions.

So, when do you use illatiivi and when not.

When related to expressing time, the illative form generally answers to questions "Mihin saakka?" (until/till/up to what), "Mihin mennessä?" (by what), and also "Mihin aikaan?" (in/during/along what time), for example:

Oppitunti kestää viiteen (asti/saakka). = The lecture takes up to 5 o' clock.

Olen iltaan mennessä kotona. = I'll be home by/in the evening (not later than).

En ole nähnyt sinua moneen vuoteen. = I haven't seen you in many years.

Viivyn täällä aattoon (asti/saakka). = I'll stay here until the eve.

Hän ajoi kierroksen viiteentoista minuuttiin. = He drove the lap (in a race) through in 15 minutes.

Enhän soittanut pahaan aikaan? = I hope I didn't call in a bad moment?

Vuodesta vuoteen samat hommat. = Year after year it's all the same work.

Siihen aikaan ei semmoisia ollut. = At those times there wasn't anything like that.

Tähän aikaan vuodesta on lämmintä. = It's warm at this time of year.

Btw. Some other uses of the Finnish illative can be seen here:
>http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illatiivi

humppaporo said:

Tonight we were talking about the Finnish language, and my daughter asked if it was possible to write something in a sarcastic way.

Sarcasm works in Finnish quite likewise as in many other languages; there aren't any particular/separate word forms/conjugations/etc. for namely sarcastic expressions, but sarcasm requires the context around it as it does in general. Naturally one can always say something that one doesn't mean for real, or something that is meant on the contrary, but one can't really tell sarcasm from a written language before seeing the context as a whole, the possible participants in it and their behaviour along the process.

EDIT: Of course it'd be a very fascinating idea to somehow be able to eg. include the the tones of voice to a written language; such would prevent many misunderstandings and conflicts for example in forums etc. ;D

[Humppaporo]

Paljon kiitoksia taas!

The last part of your post i expected to be like you say, but since we have learned things like 'En ollut tietäväni koko asiasta' and ' Me tulimme ostaneeksi liian paljon maitoa', which are very unusual constructions in our (and many) languages, i just wanted to ask.

The first part, great! Makes things much clearer.

[frostheim]

You're welcome! Good to be of help always when needed!

humppaporo said:

'En ollut tietäväni koko asiasta'

"En ollut tietävinäni koko asiasta."

(transl. for the others: I pretended not to know about the matter at all.)

[Humppaporo]

frostheim said:

You're welcome! Good to be of help always when needed!

humppaporo said:

'En ollut tietäväni koko asiasta'

"En ollut tietävinäni koko asiasta."

(transl. for the others: I pretended not to know about the matter at all.)

Olet oikeassa: olen kkirjoitusssvirrhekuningatarr. (You are right, i am the queenn of typpoos)

[elizabeth]

.. so I'm trying to learn some finnish words and right now I', trying to remember numbers. But I don't catch how to say 265.000 . Should I add 'tuhat' to kaksisataakuusikymmentäviisi? or what ? ( BTW you have very long words in finnish )