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Post by HerraHirwi on Apr 8, 2006 15:34:38 GMT 2
i have just tried to research about Pellonpekko and all i get is korpiklaani i have tried every search criteria and searched online librarys- has any body got brief information (virva i have tried searching everywhere mate) sorry Google is the man's best friend. It shouldn't be so difficult to search information via Google by yourself. Inserting "Pellonpekko" you'll find ie. this: www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=Pellonpekko&btnG=Google-haku&meta=
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Post by nantaquoud on Apr 21, 2006 15:43:20 GMT 2
Wow, I never knew the Finnish Mythology was sooo interesting.... I will read more about it....
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Post by kaote on May 26, 2006 21:27:42 GMT 2
Wow this thread is really interesting. It is hard to find information on Finnish mythology besides what is in the Kalevala. Did the Finnish shamans live only in the northlands or were there shamans in the southern forests too? When I think of the Korpiklaani shaman, I think of a Sami shaman - reindeer, animism, nomadic culture, all that. Maybe in the south where people lived with agriculture, they had more local gods and ancestor-gods and such, and people would honor them by themselves or with their families, rather than go to a shaman where you would ask them to go on a spirit journey on your behalf, to be healed or speak with animal spirits or find out about the future... I always want to find out more about Tapio, also...
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Post by frostheim on May 26, 2006 23:03:07 GMT 2
Did the Finnish shamans live only in the northlands or were there shamans in the southern forests too? Those people in the Finland's region whose culture and society form could have been desrcibed as animistic/shamanistic/totemistic weren't yet namely Finns, but they were so called "proto-Finns". The Finns belong to the Finnic people, who had derived from the proto-Finns as the agriculture from the Indo-Europeans, most evidently along the influence from the proto-Balts, came from the south to our lands. Those Finno-Ugric people who have had this so called "shamanistic" hunter-gathering culture and later on "nomadic" life style as their main source of livelihood have naturally lived much more to the south back in the ancient past, but as the agricultural Indo-Europeans have started to spread more to the north, the most southern parts of the regions occupied by the Finno-Ugric peoples have moved more northwards as well. Thus: There is naturally Finno-Ugric "shamanism" existing, but no namely Finnish-one at all. What is considered as namely Finnic/(proto-)Finnish has at it's most primitive phase have already been a sort of "mixture" from the old Finno-Ugric hunter-gatherer and nomad culture and the new Indo-European -based agriculture. What it comes to the "Finnish mythology" as it is known in general (ie. like Kalevala presents it), there's really not much left from the old hunter-gatherer and nomad culture forms, but from the Baltic-influenced agriculture and mythology instead.
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Post by kaote on May 27, 2006 8:16:52 GMT 2
That's interesting, since usually I have read about shamanic/nomadic peoples being completely replaced by the spread of agriculture and agricultural forms of religion, at least in other parts of the world. In a lot of these cases the older gods are simply forgotten in time, and the new gods are substituted as people change their ways of life. But from what I understand now, in Finland it seems that the old shamanic great-spirits/gods were kept, but adapted to agricultural life in some ways as they became the more well-known "gods" (for instance, Lempo). Maybe that is why some places are named with "name + la", they became the "place" of a certain spirit once people began to make farms and live in one place. But even the mythology that came to be known as Finnish seems to include plenty of gods based on animals and natural phenomena, rather than agricultural gods (such as a "hearth goddess" which many Indo-European mythologies have). Perhaps Lempo came with agricultural people from the south. And there is the famous bear cult which survived a very long time - it certainly has its roots in ancient reverence for the bear spirits, but in both ancient times and modern, who wouldn't be afraid of a bear in the woods? Hmmm. I wish there were more to read about in English. I'm glad I found this thread.
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Post by Runenmeisterin on May 28, 2006 23:33:33 GMT 2
This thread is very informative and I should definitely read it again. Today, I have started reading Ukkosenjumalan poika by Arto Paasilinna. It sounded like an interesting read and the first chapter was a rather entertaining introduction to Finnish mythology. I think you guys, my travel experiences from last year, and the book made me more curious now. Thaaaanx!
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randy
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Post by randy on Jun 1, 2006 15:28:50 GMT 2
this is in finnish, but i still want to post it, because it is one of my fave "poems". (and about being in finnish... old finnish, so don't worry those who doesn't speak finnish, not even finnish people can understand it too well) there isn't really anything new added to stuff people have talked here (and if someone has posted that one too already, sorry, i haven't noticed, i don't have the time to read all what people have posted here now) so it is about finnish gods, written by agricola. it is written bit late (since christianity came to finland some centuries earlier) but i still think there could be some truth in it too. anyway, there are mentioned 12 gods from häme and 12 from karelia. and i'm interested in finnish mythology, ancient beliefes and stuff. the bad thing is, that it is bit difficult to find out what it really was (but believe me, i will try, i'm studying archeology ) there can already be so many opinions of some heaps... and we have one professor who has an opinion about all stuff that might have had something to done with religion, and usually it is different from other people, but how he explains things, they really could be truth... (and so could the other opinions too...) but it still is really interesting. some scandinavian mythology is way clearer, they have written knowledge about it, in finland there isn't really anything like that. of course there is kalevala, but kalevala is just a collection of the poems (and one could almost say it is written by lönnrot, he has changed the names of people there and stuff, to make it a full story) from different places and different times too, you can't really say for sure how old they are or anything. but my goal still is to find out more about ancient believes in finland. Epejumalat monet tesse muinen palveltin caucan ja lesse. Neite cumarsit Hemelaiset seke Miehet ette Naiset. Tapio Metzest Pydhyxet soi ja Achti wedhest Caloja toi. Äinemöinen wirdhet tacoi Rachkoi Cuun mustaxi jacoi. Lieckiö Rohot jwret ja puudh hallitsi ja sencaltaiset mwdh. Ilmarinen Rauhan ja ilman tei ja Matkamiehet edheswei. Turisas annoi Woiton Sodhast Cratti murhen piti Tavarast. Tontu Honen menon hallitzi quin Piru monda willitzi. Capeet mös heilde Cuun söit Calevanpojat Nijttut ja mwdh löit. Waan Carjalaisten Nämet olit Epejumalat cuin he rucolit. Rongoteus Ruista annoi Pellonpecko Ohran casvon soi. Wirancannos Cauran caitzi mutoin oltin Caurast paitzi. Egres hernet Pawudh Naurit loi Caalit Linat ja Hamput edestoi. Köndös Huchtat ja Pellot teki quin heiden Epeuskons näki. Ja quin Kevekylvö kylvettin silloin ukon malja jootijn. Sihen haetin ukon wacka nin joopui Pica ette Acka. Sijtte paljo Häpie sielle techtin quin seke cwltin ette nechtin. Quin Rauni Ukon Naini härsky jalosti Ukoi pohjasti pärsky. Se sis annoi Ilman ja WdhenTulon käkri se liseis Carjan casvon. Hiisi Metzeleist soi woiton Wedhen Eme wei calat vercon. Nyrckes Oravat annoi Metzast Hittavanin toi Jenexet Pensast. Eikö se Cansa wimmattu ole joca neite wsko ja rucole. Sihen Piru ja Sydi weti heite Ette he cumarsit ja wskoit neite. Cooludhen hautijn Rooca wietin joissa walitin parghutin ja idketin. Menningeiset mös heiden Wffrins sait coska Lesket hoolit ja nait. Palveltin mös paljo muuta Kivet Cannot Tädhet ja Cwuta. — Mikael Agricola, Psalttari (1551)
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Post by HerraHirwi on Jun 1, 2006 15:50:43 GMT 2
-- some scandinavian mythology is way clearer, they have written knowledge about it, in finland there isn't really anything like that. Finnish mythology has preserved via ages only by an oral tradition, not written. Thus the only way we can study these things is by linguistically - and comparing those evidents we have from it. Nevertheless, SKS (Suomalaisen Kirjallisuuden Seura = The Academy of Finnish Literature) has collected so much those preserved runo-songs from our mythology, which is as wide and as versatile, that it isn't anything like ie. Scandinavian mythology or such. Mikael Agricola, Psalttari (1551) If I would like to study the Finnish mythology, I wouldn't start with Psalttari. Psalttari is attempt of Agricola to create 12 gods to Häme people and Karelians, because Greeks and Romans had 12 god pantheon (= attempt which is doomed already when it has born in one's thoughts). Psalttari is thus very unsafe source to get known about Finnish mythology. More true and more studied point of view you can from these books in Finnish (I don't know is there namely from Finnish mythology written much in English): Uno Harva: Suomalaisten muinaisusko Martti Haavio: Suomalainen mytologia Timo Heikkilä: Kalevalan metafysiikkaa Timo Heikkilä: Kullervon suku Timo Heikkilä: Aurinkolaiva - Lemminkäisen myytti ja Ritvalan helkajuhla
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randy
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Post by randy on Jun 1, 2006 18:15:21 GMT 2
-- some scandinavian mythology is way clearer, they have written knowledge about it, in finland there isn't really anything like that. Finnish mythology has preserved via ages only by an oral tradition, not spoken. Thus the only way we can study these things is by linguistically - and comparing those evidents we have from it. Nevertheless, SKS (Suomalaisen Kirjallisuuden Seura = The Academy of Finnish Literature) has collected so much those preserved runo-songs from our mythology, which is as wide and as versatile, that it isn't anything like ie. Scandinavian mythology or such. Mikael Agricola, Psalttari (1551) If I would like to study the Finnish mythology, I wouldn't start with Psalttari. Psalttari is attempt of Agricola to create 12 gods to Häme people and Karelians, because Greeks and Romans had 12 god pantheon (= attempt which is doomed already when it has born in one's thoughts). Psalttari is thus very unsafe source to get known about Finnish mythology. More true and more studied point of view you can from these books in Finnish (I don't know is there namely from Finnish mythology written much in English): Uno Harva: Suomalaisten muinaisusko Martti Haavio: Suomalainen mytologia Timo Heikkilä: Kalevalan metafysiikkaa Timo Heikkilä: Kullervon suku Timo Heikkilä: Aurinkolaiva - Lemminkäisen myytti ja Ritvalan helkajuhla i still see the problem there, because the poems are old and can change, and they haven't started to write them up that long time ago... writing came to finland about the same time than christianity, and at that time they wrote religion stuff, not about pagan gods. i don't say you can't find anything about mythology from poems and stuff, but still. in scandinavia, there are older texts as well, which is different from finland. and i know agricola's write it is not what is something real about finish mythology and stuff (i already wrote it is written bit late, in my minds that means it isn't so reliable) (and yea, i should have written it, and i was going to write it... but it seems i didn't... bad memory...) well, i still am going to find some great finds that tell everyone everything about finnish mythology. some picture stone or something.... (why do i have a feeling that won't happen...)
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Post by HerraHirwi on Jun 1, 2006 23:48:53 GMT 2
i still see the problem there, because the poems are old and can change, and they haven't started to write them up that long time ago... And I see it as a richness, because our native runo-songs (with the legends of creation of World, forging of Sampo, birth of kantele, fight between Väinämöinen and Joukahainen etc.) have namely lived even so long that we have had a chance to collect them - with many variations. In Scandinavia ie. the old legends did fade out - even thought much of them was already written. And you have to remember that Christianity has influenced also in Scandinavian mythology too - even when they were written. The winners are the ones who write the history, you know. It has influenced in Finnish runo-songs too, but ie. from Finnish collected folk poems you can find clear tracks from shamanism and something beyond very long time - which is a unique and fabulous thing. Thus I claim with proven facts that Finnish mythology has preserved very pure and original subjects - as it has lived in our days too; the thing you can't say from Scandinavian mythology, as it has had many national romantic adds afterwards, which has made impossible to know what the things are original and what is imagination. Of course runo-songs have changed via ages, but hey: that's how the life goes. It's something we call by the name: culture. The main point is to preserve something very old, but renew the tradition from time to time - but still maintaining some of the very old themes. Only the change is the way how some tradition goes forward. And if you look at this side the Finnish folklore, it has succeeded very well in it. The preservance of our runo-songs and kantele traditions have made possible ie. for me to write same kind of runo-songs - and feel that I'm doing something very same in the same continuum. Thus I'm grateful that we have our traditional texts in the archives of SKS still in the first place. There's no need to think what it would have been - or to compare it with ie. Viking stuff as it's very different kind of mythology in such many ways. and i know agricola's write it is not what is something real about finish mythology and stuff (i already wrote it is written bit late, in my minds that means it isn't so reliable) (and yea, i should have written it, and i was going to write it... but it seems i didn't... bad memory...) The rule number one in the public forums: think first, then write. not the opposite! well, i still am going to find some great finds that tell everyone everything about finnish mythology. some picture stone or something.... (why do i have a feeling that won't happen...) This is what I'd call fantasy. No-one can find such a stone or any mark that would tell everything. This thought I recommend you to forget. Instead of it you can read much about the subject and study it - ie. in many fabulous universities here in Finland. I gave you a list of good literature about the subject. It's a good way to give it a kick: start with reading those books. They should be found in every good libraries in Finland. Reading and studying is always recommendable and I hope you'd succeed in it!
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Post by kaote on Jun 2, 2006 20:18:29 GMT 2
I wanted to share this link I found about runos, written by a member of Värttinä. Some of it has to do with their music specifically, but there is some interesting info about various regional styles and the structure of the poetry itself and how there were all kinds of songs including spells and incantations. www.varttina.com/main.site?action=siteupdate/view&id=52Heh, I feel like I am getting off the topic of Finnish gods now into poetry ;D
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Post by HerraHirwi on Jun 2, 2006 20:38:36 GMT 2
Heh, I feel like I am getting off the topic of Finnish gods now into poetry ;D How about if we start a new thread to deal with runo-singing and Finnish folk poetry? There's much discussion of it in several threads. I'd find it very useful to collect them under the same thread. What do you think about it? EDIT: HERE you have the topic about runos suggested above!
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randy
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Post by randy on Jun 2, 2006 20:52:39 GMT 2
@virva, well, i'm an archeologist (or becoming an archaelogist) i want to dig the old stuff. so for me, it is interesting how it has been then, and how the believes have effect people's lifes and so on. of course i can read some books (and i've already read some stuff about it) but it still is different from what it was in real life for example a thousand year ago. i'm
and about the stone i mentioned... don't take everything too seriously what i say, because if you do that, you won't stay sane for a moment with me... and that that i don't say everything too seriously, doesn't mean i wouldn't take anything seriously. but still, for me it isn't just about the books, i want to find something concrete too. and there are some concrete stuff, they have tried to connect with mythology. and i would be interested to study about that more. overall, i'm mostly interested in finnish, scandinavian and balkan's pre history, not just with the mythology. and when it comes to mythology, like i said, i'm mostly interested how it was back then. and it's not really just the mythology, but the other believes as well. and yes, i know it is probably impossible to find out how the things really were then... at least not yet you can go back in time (even i've also decided i will find a way to do that too...)
and btw, i already am in university, and if i happen to notice there some interesting course about the subject, i can take it. i exactly had one mythology course already, but it was about mythologies in antique, not in finland.
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Post by HerraHirwi on Jun 2, 2006 20:58:33 GMT 2
randy: You don't have to explain me self-evident things about "taking something seriously". I have a sense of humour after all. I was only referring to your writing, which seemed a little childish as I didn't knew the background information, which you told in your latest post. If you want to take some humour in it, make sure you're understood (=good to remember in public forum, where no-one can see your face, when talking to) If I can ask you: In which university do you study archaeology? I'm myself studying in Finno-Ugric department of Helsinki University.
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randy
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Post by randy on Jun 2, 2006 22:00:30 GMT 2
too many people take me too seriously, so i have to make sure all doesn't. and yea, i know i can sound childish, but it is mostly because i am childish. (never lose the kid inside you) but i kind of realised some time ago, thanks to our teacher, that i should take some stuff more seriously, but it's not a subject to be talked here about. (and about humor, usually when i say something too stupid and too childish, then i don't say it too seriously. it just is my way to talk and write that i always put some too bad jokes there... and then people look at me like i was some idiot, because they don't understand i'm joking, not even if i said that. but thank god i know more people nowdays who understand my sense of humour too)
and i study in university of oulu. just finished my first year so i don't know too much about anything yet...
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