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Post by HerraHirwi on Jun 3, 2006 11:22:55 GMT 2
too many people take me too seriously, so i have to make sure all doesn't. and yea, i know i can sound childish, but it is mostly because i am childish. (never lose the kid inside you) but i kind of realised some time ago, thanks to our teacher, that i should take some stuff more seriously, but it's not a subject to be talked here about. (and about humor, usually when i say something too stupid and too childish, then i don't say it too seriously. it just is my way to talk and write that i always put some too bad jokes there... and then people look at me like i was some idiot, because they don't understand i'm joking, not even if i said that. but thank god i know more people nowdays who understand my sense of humour too) Humour isn't never forbidden, as isn't the childlike open-mindness (=which I find is a very good thing either. But like I said, it's recommendable to express yourself here in the forum so that people know when you're serious and when not. As it's in the rules: Be sure that everything you write is understood, so that there won't come misunderstandings. But let's off this off-topic. You can continue in PM if it's need to.
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Post by shaman on Aug 19, 2006 23:59:29 GMT 2
Are the Finnish gods modelled after other Scandinavian ones or are they unique and have their roots to the east?
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Post by frostheim on Aug 20, 2006 11:56:54 GMT 2
Are the Finnish gods modelled after other Scandinavian ones or are they unique and have their roots to the east? All in all these "gods" in "Finnish mythology" are somewhat of newer origin and thus very questionable and dubious anyway; many of the names (not all however!) and even characters known for the most have been nothing more but just originated and formed in the researchers own minds before getting them on the paper; in addition, much depends also on what time period is in question: The earlier hunter-gatherer culture (which was proto-Finnic, thus not yet Finnish) didn't recognize any "gods" but instead many kinds of spirits etc. within the nature and surroundings, as the image of the world and all the existence was namely animistic, shamanistic and totemistic, and thus not polyteistic like in the much later agricultural form of mythologies and the culture as a whole. Namely gods and alike considered to belong to the "Finnish culture" have come to exist first along the agriculture and it's mythology that were both adapted from the Baltic peoples.
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Post by shaman on Aug 20, 2006 16:16:42 GMT 2
Hmm I see, thanks. About the proto-Finnic tribes having more spirits as opposed to 'gods'; did any proto-Finnic tribes hold any belief in a sky 'god' that the Hungarians once did - it goes by many names, for example Tenri, Tangri, Tangir, Tengir, Dingir (that's Sumerian) and in Turkish it is Tanri - I know the modern Hungarian words isn't really similar to those, but their anscestors did once believe in Tengrism where the 'sky god' was supreme - So I wonder, did the old Finnic tribes also?
Btw, how do you say 'god' in Finnish?
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Post by frostheim on Aug 20, 2006 19:15:51 GMT 2
About the proto-Finnic tribes having more spirits as opposed to 'gods'; did any proto-Finnic tribes hold any belief in a sky 'god' that the Hungarians once did - it goes by many names, for example Tenri, Tangri, Tangir, Tengir, Dingir (that's Sumerian) and in Turkish it is Tanri - I know the modern Hungarian words isn't really similar to those, but their anscestors did once believe in Tengrism where the 'sky god' was supreme - So I wonder, did the old Finnic tribes also? My specialization as a Fenno-Ugrist is in the Sámi research, thus I'm perhaps not the best person to answer when the question is about the ancient Hungarian beliefs and cultural matters, but what it comes to the proto-Finnic part of the subject, the proto-Finnic people have naturally got much in common with the other Finno-Ugric peoples of the arctic regions namely because of the environmental matters plus the cultural and lingual contacts, whereas the Hungarians started to differ from their relatives in the north quite remarkably and at relatively early stage what it comes to the environment and via that even the beliefs as well. However, the old Finno-Ugric hunter-gatherer cultures of the past shared in certain ways quite a horizontal-based conception of the world = most of all the observing was concentrated on the direct environment and the surroundings at the horizontal stage, although one can naturally tell there having been certain verticality in the image of distance as well, namely because of the quite universal Uralic conception (though with a lot of different variations) of the "world-column" = "the centre of the world" that was based on the perception of the polar star on the nocturnal sky as a central and distinguished component, thus it's only consistent that there have also been certain beliefs concerning the sky. In addition, as the division of the world into 3 stages (the upper, middle and lower world) was very popular among the Finno-Ugric people, especially the Ob-Ugrians (the Khanty & Mansy; the "closest" lingual relatives to the Hungarians), there surely have been a convenient starting-point for certain kind of "sky spirits" and/or certain beliefs concerning the "upper world" to be born in the minds of the people of that time. Then again, as the proto-Finnic conception of the world still leaned towards the so called shamanistic, animistic and totemistic way of thinking, the concepts of the spirits, spiritual entities and alike have actually been relatively newer elements and "inventions" within the hunter-gatherer cultures and societies afterall, as the even more "original" and naturally much older conception of the world have consisted of considering namely the animals having certain mythological and/or otherwise "greater" origins, features, characteristics etc., which can easily be seen ie. as totem animals among different tribes, animal symbolism as an essential part within these culture- and society forms in question and so on, thus I'd say it having been very unlikely for the proto-Finnic people yet at that stage to have had any (at least any essential) "sky spirits" instead of namely certain totemic animals and themes alike related to this "upper world", or to the whole conception of the universe in general. Btw, how do you say 'god' in Finnish? The Finnish word for "god" is jumala.
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Post by wolferin on Sept 22, 2006 15:59:37 GMT 2
shaman wrote: ..... did any proto-Finnic tribes hold any belief in a sky 'god' that the Hungarians once did - it goes by many names, for example Tenri, Tangri, Tangir, Tengir, Dingir (that's Sumerian) and in Turkish it is Tanri - I know the modern Hungarian words isn't really similar to those, but their anscestors did once believe in Tengrism where the 'sky god' was supreme - So I wonder, did the old Finnic tribes also?
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Post by frostheim on Sept 23, 2006 10:57:43 GMT 2
They are different from Finnish shamans. Once again I'd like to lay stress on one thing that I already tried to tell about there earlier; Finnish shamans (in the way shamans have existed in many other Finno-Ugric cultures) have never even existed for real; that period of certain cultural and lingual form that can be called Finnish, has already been agricultural (and thus not shamanistic anymore), as the Finnic culture is mostly developed from the contacts between the proto-Finnic people and the early Baltic people. The proto-Finnic period was still shamanistic, but the Finnish-one was a sort of "blend" from some elements of the more ancient proto-Finnic culture and the newer and namely foreign agriculture, thus the definition of shamanism as any kind of part within namely the Finnish culture is extremely dubious and questionable. The Finnish shamans travel in free worlds(I know what does it mean) - how, by using some drugs, by going in trance due to some special music, etc. or by subdividing the soul from the body and making astral journey? The old Finno-Ugric image of the world consisted of the upper, middle and lower worlds, between which the shaman of the society "travelled" in a very concentrated state caused by monotonic drumming or then in a trance or a confused state usually caused by certain types of mushrooms which are actually one of the most well-known main characteristics of the Siberian-based shamanism in general. How they were healing people - by herbs, by conjurations, by magic? Many kinds of herbs and conjurations have always been quite general and common methods in the folk beliefs concerning the curing and healing among the Finno-Ugric peoples through the ages. Can they adopt the soul (the spirit) of animals, in order to gain from their strength and to make easier the contacts with the other worlds - - Usually the shaman took a form of certain animals (in a metaphorical stage of course) when travelling between the worlds to get answers and/or solutions to matters that needed something such within the society. In example, if the shaman was about to contact the spirits from the lower worlds, he could have "taken" a form of a fish to travel in the waters, or a bird when travelling up to the skies etc. I'd read s.th. about Siberian shamans and there was told, that often for shamans were trained peple with some physical disabilities (blind for example). It was considered that they were scared by the high powers and they can be mediators between different worlds. Usually the practise of a shaman was fallen upon those people who differed in a way or another from all the other people in the society; the shaman had ie. certain injury, body malformation(s), blindness or other problems in the senses, or simply mental problems or alike that made the shaman to digress remarkably from the rest of the group. Because of these "features" the shaman was considered having certain abilities that the others didn't have, thus it was rather an unwanted duty and a burden to carry for the rest of the life than any kind of "honor" or a subject of proudness of being a shaman, as the shaman was generally "forced" to maintain certain responsibility and actions of certain matters, even if the person in question didn't even want anything such to happen (in case that person was even aware of his job to be done for the rest of the group/society). Was there such a practicå among Finnish shamans? "The Finno-Ugric shamanism" has had a lot of similarities all around in those places where such can be said having been, thus such has also occurred here in Finland's region as well. Did the Finnish shamans told the will of a certain god. 1) About the "Finnish shamanism", see my earlier answer in this posting. 2) About the "Finnish" gods, here's what I wrote earlier in this thread: "All in all these "gods" in "Finnish mythology" are somewhat of newer origin and thus very questionable and dubious anyway; many of the names (not all however!) and even characters known for the most have been nothing more but just originated and formed in the researchers own minds before getting them on the paper; in addition, much depends also on what time period is in question: The earlier hunter-gatherer culture (which was proto-Finnic, thus not yet Finnish) didn't recognize any "gods" but instead many kinds of spirits etc. within the nature and surroundings, as the image of the world and all the existence was namely animistic, shamanistic and totemistic, and thus not polyteistic like in the much later agricultural form of mythologies and the culture as a whole. Namely gods and alike considered to belong to the "Finnish culture" have come to exist first along the agriculture and it's mythology that were both adapted from the Baltic peoples." 3) "Taking orders from gods" or "doing the gods' will" is something taken from the European fairy tales, and such has simply nothing to do with the realities within any of the past or present Finno-Ugric culture forms. At the end I want to give oppinion about one question, I met many times in the thread - about Scandinavian and Finnish mythology. They are very different. Of course they are different, it's not even an opinion but a self-evident fact; Finnish is Finno-Ugric (inspite of the certain Baltic-based agricultural matters) and Scandinavian is (North-)Germanic and via that Indo-European, thus both have derived from completely different origins in completely different directions. Only these similat names Thor, Tyr, Turisas. But Thor is more "college" to Ukko and Turisas to Tyr, or partially to Odin, being a got of war. It is obvious the Finnish myths are from older times, when people live close to nature, in tribe societies. In the Scandinavian mythology there are mentioned jarls, konungs, etc., which means state structure. The Finnish gods are mostly all of a Baltic origin (as the concept of gods in general is a much newer invention as I explained there above); the certain "similarities" to ie. Scandinavian pantheon is namely because both the Scandinavian and the Baltic cultures are Indo-European-based agricultures sharing more in common than compared to the Finno-Ugric-ones which were all hunter-gatherers and later on nomadic peoples for their origins, and thus sharing a lot more ancient ways of livelihood and societal forms compared to the younger "western" culture forms.
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Post by wolferin on Sept 25, 2006 16:54:28 GMT 2
Sept 23, 2006, 11:57am, Kuuraparta wrote:
As far as I understood, in proto - Finic culture people believed in the spirits of nature and there was a shamanic tradition. After that were adapted some Baltic gods and myths and mixed with s.th. from the proto- Finic period. Late after that came the researchers and begun to write on paper ancient legends. When they did not understand anything they "invented" some facts and personalities. So, the Finnish gods is better to be accepted more like folk tales or fairy tales heroes. They are not "protagonist" in a general pagan religion, like, for example of ancient Greece. In different regions are worshiped one or some of the Finnish gods, but not all as a pantheon. Am I right? But did the gods had some kind of s heathen shrine and did the people make sacrifices for them - some food, animals, humans!!? Another thing that will help understanding - where the proto-Finic tribes came for, before they settled on Scandinavian peninsula?
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Post by frostheim on Sept 25, 2006 21:48:31 GMT 2
As far as I understood, in proto - Finic culture people believed in the spirits of nature and there was a shamanic tradition. After that were adapted some Baltic gods and myths and mixed with s.th. from the proto- Finic period. Late after that came the researchers and begun to write on paper ancient legends. When they did not understand anything they "invented" some facts and personalities. So, the Finnish gods is better to be accepted more like folk tales or fairy tales heroes. They are not "protagonist" in a general pagan religion, like, for example of ancient Greece. In different regions are worshiped one or some of the Finnish gods, but not all as a pantheon. Am I right? Mainly like this, yes. But did the gods had some kind of s heathen shrine and did the people make sacrifices for them - some food, animals, humans!!? As far as I know, human sacrifices have never been characteristic in any aspect among the cultures of the arctic regions, most least among the Uralic peoples. Such is something from popular publishings, fairy tales, new-age literature, or then from very different cultures from completely different regions on Earth compared to that of the very subject at the moment otherwise. Another thing that will help understanding - where the proto-Finic tribes came for, before they settled on Scandinavian peninsula? This is a question the researchers have been battling about for ages, some even nowadays, but here's my answer based on the most likely and the most official statement and comprehension of today concerning the matter: Although the Uralic languages have made their spreading clearly from the east, the people and their genetic backgrouds are however developed and formed somewhat differently. Namely the Finns or even the "proto-Finns" have actually never come here from somewhere, but those peoples that later on adopted and then succeeded also in maintaining certain forms of the Finno-Ugric languages (and then go through many lingual and cultural phases from then on), have developed in these very regions from certain cultural and lingual contacts as the time has passed, and namely from those more or less unknown peoples who started to settle on these regions after the latest Ice Age around 10 000-9000 years ago. There are a lot of hypoteses, theories and explanations about that population in question, but a sure thing is, that they've naturally been hunter-gatherers with their own language(s) and culture, and who then have come in contacts with those peoples speaking certain forms of the Uralic languages in certain ways older and more ancient than the proto-Finnic phase and period.
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Post by wolferin on Sept 25, 2006 22:58:07 GMT 2
Today at 10:48pm, Kuuraparta wrote:
Yes, really, the fairy tales and the fantasy books and movies are very amusing and I like them as well, but they can be sometimes "guilty" for some of the popular historic false believes.
Today at 10:48pm, Kuuraparta wrote:
This explains why the myths are very distinctive.
Why one must not say the name of the bear in a loud voice? I've read s.th. - if you shout the name of a given supernatural force, it'll turn against you.
If I have some questions connected with history, where I can write them, 'cause there's no history discussion.
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Post by frostheim on Sept 26, 2006 7:23:18 GMT 2
Why one must not say the name of the bear in a loud voice? I've read s.th. - if you shout the name of a given supernatural force, it'll turn against you. The bear had a very special mythological and cultic position in most of the Uralic cultures. All animals were considered sacred, but the bear was the most sacred-one; there have even been bear cults among the Uralic peoples in the past, as the bear has been an essential cult- and totem animal through the ages in general. Some tribes were even considered having been born from a bear etc. However, the significance of the bear then realized as certain strict remarkable respect for this animal in question, which then has led ie. to numerous alternative expressions for calling and describing something that has considered being of certain noble and even spiritual origin. Respecting and honouring the bear made the bear to respect and honour the humans, thus living and hunting in the same regions were then possible and secured for all. If I have some questions connected with history, where I can write them, 'cause there's no history discussion. I updated the title into more expanded form, thus we can now discuss everything about history, myths, languages and such related to Finland and general Finnish matters in this topic.
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Post by wolferin on Sept 27, 2006 13:50:15 GMT 2
Yesterday at 8:23am, Kuuraparta wrote: That's why the bear is met here and there in the Kopiklaani lyrics. Who is the"Forest God"? Yesterday at 8:23am, Kuuraparta wrote: It'll be interestinng to write s.th. about the Lappi people. I know about Santa, the little boozers, i.e. dwarfs and Lordi, who won Eurovision, but I'm afraid, that's all.
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uklfc
Eagle
Finn metal lover
Posts: 197
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Post by uklfc on Nov 15, 2006 23:44:33 GMT 2
All I can remember from the Kalevala is Youkahainen, being from Lapland, losing a bard contest with Waianahainen, and his sister, Aino, plunging herself into the waters instead of marrying Wainahainen. I'd forgotten how much I'd enjoyed reading this. There's a lot of similarities here between the pagan religions of England and the symbolism shown here.
THank you for making me remember something I'd forgotten, but used to love so dearly.
Also, Lordi are brilliant. High esteem for both bands I think
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Post by HerraHirwi on Nov 16, 2006 14:06:48 GMT 2
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uklfc
Eagle
Finn metal lover
Posts: 197
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Post by uklfc on Nov 16, 2006 14:25:10 GMT 2
I dont have the mad umlaut things, and I have a habit of spelling Finnish phonetically. And yes, I AM still learning , so i do get mixed up.
Sorry about that.
Also, there was one thing I wondered about it. Is the Kalevala land symbolised meant to be Suomi or a different land entirely., As I know Vainamoinen goes to Lapland to meet Aino.
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