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Post by HerraHirwi on Nov 16, 2006 16:09:24 GMT 2
Also, there was one thing I wondered about it. Is the Kalevala land symbolised meant to be Suomi or a different land entirely., As I know Vainamoinen goes to Lapland to meet Aino. Actually Kalevala doesn't refer in any specific place, because old folk runo's have been collected from many areas from Eastern Finland, Ingria and Russian Karelia. Kalevala is a more a mythical place. So is Pohjola a mythical placetoo, not a place referring to real Lapland. Pohjola is "somewhere in the north" or "somewhere else". It can refer also to a land where dead people live. Both places do not thus refer in any real place in Finland.
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uklfc
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Post by uklfc on Nov 16, 2006 16:17:06 GMT 2
But Aino's brother, Youkahainen IS the bard of Lapland, it even states this in the earlier runes, that he travels from Lapland to Kalevala, to best him in a contest. And the prize for Wainahainen winning is Aino, the fair maiden of Lapland. It also says thay Youkahainen will
"I will go and face the minstrel, Challenge him to sing in contest, Challenge him as bard to battle, Sing to him my sweet-toned measures, Chant to him my oldest legends, Chant to him my garnered wisdom, That this best of boasted singers, That this famous bard of Suomi, Shall be worsted in the contest, Shall become a hapless minstrel;"
So what is being symbolised here, if it isn't Suomi and Lapland?
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Post by HerraHirwi on Nov 16, 2006 19:19:04 GMT 2
But Aino's brother, Youkahainen IS the bard of Lapland, it even states this in the earlier runes, that he travels from Lapland to Kalevala, to best him in a contest. You have to know the fact that Lapland is used as a synonyme for the Pohjola. In ancient Finnish "lappi" ment something like "a people from the outlying district", so it doesn't necessary refer to i.e. Sámi people or Lapland as we now know it. As I already explained to you, there's many different levels in folk runo's what is meant by "Pohjola". It may refer to the mythical north, or people from elsewhere, or even the land of death, because in many Finno-Ugric cultures the land of the dead lies in the north. The visit of Väinämöinen may thus refer to the shaman's voyage into the land of the dead, which is very common theme in the folklore of Finno-Ugric peoples. So what is being symbolised here, if it isn't Suomi and Lapland? ' "Kalevala" or "Väinölä" is same kind of place like "Pohjola", not the literally Suomi (Suomi was originally meant only a small part of southwest Finland and not the whole country). It refers only to a mythical place, where those events take a place. And you must remember also that in Finnish folk poetry names put together with lines may not necessary be a synonymes (they can even be opposites), they can also meant some other places too. Moreover you have to pay attention - when speaking in our folk poetry - that in any case they cannot be taken litarally as it's written in runo's collected and edited by E. Lönnrot. There are many variants of those ancient poets and if you have only read Kalevala, it's only the top of the iceberg. I recommend you to study a little more better of this issue before objecting what I just explained to you. -Student of the Finno-Ugric linguistics and cultures EDIT: And please use the names Joukahainen and Väinämöinen (or Vainamoinen if it's difficult to create umlaut), not any pseudo-names. People may misunderstand them, so it's better to use the real names, not invented ones.
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uklfc
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Post by uklfc on Nov 16, 2006 19:41:43 GMT 2
I'm using the names I have from the English translation, as these are the only ones I have access to and can readily remember.
But thank you for explaining, I had wondered when I first read it what it was meant to mean. I re asked as you didnt explain it clearly enough in your first post. How am I to be aware of the other Finnish myths if this is the only one I have been able to locate. And the derogatory tone you took isnt intended, is it? But, as I stated previously, I do find this highly interesting, myths and paganistic cultures being one of my interests.
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Post by HerraHirwi on Nov 16, 2006 20:54:27 GMT 2
I re asked as you didnt explain it clearly enough in your first post. How am I to be aware of the other Finnish myths if this is the only one I have been able to locate. And the derogatory tone you took isnt intended, is it? But, as I stated previously, I do find this highly interesting, myths and paganistic cultures being one of my interests. I did explained the same thing in shortly as I was in school and I didn't have time to explain it further, as I did in my second post, from where I explained the whole story with a little more details. I answered like I answered as you gave me some statement's like "But Joukahainen IS the bard.." etc. which gave me the impression that what you say it's the absolute thruth. There isn't any "deragatory tone" (whatever you may mean by that) in my speech, I only wanted to explain the whole thing as I have figured it out with my studies and make a little "feet on a ground" approach to you with this issue. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not forbidden to ask, if you're not sure from the things you're talking about. It's always better option than explaining things in the tone that they truly are so. But as you find my answer satisfied, let's be with that issue. EDIT: I could explain some certain points of Kalevala (and the real runo's not edited by E. Lönnrot) and Finnish mythology even yet more better and yet more details, but they're explained already in this forum, so I don't see it necessary to start repeating myself any longer. Much of them are placed in this very topic. Have you read it through from the beginning?
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uklfc
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Post by uklfc on Nov 16, 2006 21:28:38 GMT 2
Yup, I have. Read all 8 pages including references to Lemminkainen and his bastardisation by Christianity into Lempo, the fact that Ilmarinen's role appears to change.
I liked the fact the runes also show one for the origin of Iron, and for the brewing of beer! And also, I read on a different site that many of the names still used by Finns today for bear are in fact, synonyms, including one, which I cant remember the Finnish for, but it translated to "Honey paw" . Is there any reason behind this occuring?
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Post by frostheim on Nov 16, 2006 22:22:12 GMT 2
which I cant remember the Finnish for, but it translated to "Honey paw" . Is there any reason behind this occuring? Mesikämmen in Finnish, one of the numerous eufemisms for the bear, as the question has been about an honoured and respected totem animal among the arctic hunter-gatherer- and nomad cultures. The reason behind this very expression might be in an old image of a bear being after honey or in general something that is known as rarer good from the nature and that is usually enjoyed by the more "higher-ones". But of course, one has to remember here that mesikämmen surely is more of an exalted name, and even in a way "respective through certain jocular", as the fallen bear was also entertained, diverted and treated well in the ancient bear rituals where certain games, contests etc. played a remarkable role in addition to the more formal ceremonial executions.
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uklfc
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Post by uklfc on Nov 16, 2006 22:31:04 GMT 2
Aah, thats definitely cleared that up. Thanks a lot, as it does refer to him as the honey paw in the Kalevala, and I looked up about it, but couldnät find much of a reason why, and now I do!
Kiitos paljon!
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Post by wolferin on Dec 10, 2006 13:38:00 GMT 2
I dont have the mad umlaut things You can write umlauts in different ways: ö - : o, like in German, ö - oe, or to copy-paste a word with umlauts from other text (post, song lyrics, etc.) and use the umlauts or any kind of special characters - Väinämöinen - ä,ä,ö; frættast víða - æ, ð. It doesn't take so much time. In the beginning I had a problem to see the umlauts. May be no one other had it, but I'll write this. From the bar with File, Edit, etc., press "View"- "Encoding" - "Western European (Windows)". I want to ask a question about the Finnish names. I think it's not been discussed. What names carry the people in Filand, the origin, what do they mean. How the sirnames are formed, how many personal names, second names and sirnames you have. Is there a "Name Law" in Finland?
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Post by Nordis on Dec 25, 2006 16:32:28 GMT 2
I want to ask a question about the Finnish names. I think it's not been discussed. What names carry the people in Filand, the origin, what do they mean. How the sirnames are formed, how many personal names, second names and sirnames you have. Is there a "Name Law" in Finland? I'll answer as well as I know this issue, others can give more detailed information then. Back in the days every house had it's own name which was given by i.e. it's location or it's master's first name. If the person who built and lived the house was for example 'Matti', the house was most likely to be called as 'Mattila'. When this Matti then had descendants, other people called them as ".... of Mattila", and thus the surnames were born. Nowadays surnames aren't really formed like in some cultures since the descendants always get the same surname that their parents have. There's also laws that children can't have no more than three names plus surname, and boys can't have feminine names and vice versa. The names also must be in good taste and known names or common words, but I'm not sure about the details of that law. Anyways, something like "Matti v2.0" or "Crocodile Dundee" wouldn't be possible names in Finland
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Post by Lionheart on Dec 25, 2006 16:45:10 GMT 2
Isn't this part subject to a huge case of opinion?
What I find funny is that there actually is a law for it. Wouldn't that law contradict the constitution, in which I'm sure there is an article concerning free speech etc etc.
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Post by Nordis on Dec 26, 2006 10:57:04 GMT 2
I looked for the actual law and it says that a child can't have name that is:
1) A name that isn't written in a finnish manner (so no Dau'gnars in here)
2) Woman's name on a boy or vice versa
3) Surname, unless it's formed from fathers' or mothers' first name and ends to -poika or -tytär (Mattisson or Mattisdaughter, referring to the earlier example). This must be the second name though, not the first one.
4) A name that your brother or sister already has.
However, any of those names can be accepted if there's a religious manner that demands it, the child or the parents have contacts to foreign country where such name would be common or if there's some other really good reason to have such a name ;D
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Post by twilightheart on Dec 26, 2006 11:04:24 GMT 2
However, any of those names can be accepted if there's a religious manner that demands it, the child or the parents have contacts to foreign country where such name would be common or if there's some other really good reason to have such a name ;D The question is, what IS a good reason? If Finish parents just for the good sound of the name want to call their child "Nadine", they can't. Do Finnish people like this? I think this would be a good law for Germany as well. Then we wouldn't have so many "Kevin"s and "Mandy"s here. Oh no... wait, would't be good, as we also wouldn't have "Patrik"s here then. Only "Wolfgang"s or "Heinz"s. No, honestly: when parents are christian but Finnish, can they call their daughter "Maria" in Finland then??
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Post by Nordis on Dec 26, 2006 11:24:39 GMT 2
No, honestly: when parents are christian but Finnish, can they call their daughter "Maria" in Finland then?? Sure, since Maria has been a common name in here for ages. I don't know who then decides which is a suitable name and which isn't, since there are registered names like "Stone", "Troll", "Thor" and plenty of foreign names in the finnish name register.
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Post by wolferin on Jan 5, 2007 14:56:29 GMT 2
What I find funny is that there actually is a law for it. Wouldn't that law contradict the constitution, in which I'm sure there is an article concerning free speech etc etc. To some extent such a law contradicts to the freedom of speech, but there are people that give awful names to there children. In the middle of the 20th century (i.e. the 50-s), my father told me, there was a fashion in Bulgaria, to give the children very strange names, for exp. if someone was cured by a medicine, he gave this name to his child - "Aspirin", or the surname of some communist leaders - "Lenin", "Stalin" and even a strange names like "Vampire". After that these people were ashamed of their names and many changed them. Because of this, there must be some kind of a law. I think this would be a good law for Germany as well. Then we wouldn't have so many "Kevin"s and "Mandy"s here. It's the same in Bulgaria, in the last years there are children with names "Kevin", "Nancy", "Eric". When these boys have children, the father names, formed from the foreign names will sound ridiculous in Bulgarian. (We have three names - personal name, father name - the name of the father+suffixes and surname - the name of the grandfather or the "clan" name of the father +suffixes; the women can have four names, to add the surname of the husband, instead of changing or preserving the maiden name) Sure, since Maria has been a common name in here for ages. I don't know who then decides which is a suitable name and which isn't, since there are registered names like "Stone", "Troll", "Thor" and plenty of foreign names in the finnish name register. Maria is a good name, accepted all over the christian countries (or a equivalent of it - Mary, etc.). The parents must decide about the name of the child. They must think, that one day the child will go out of the family and his/her name must be acceptable for the other people as well. Except this, with the name the parents wish s.th. to the child, I can't imagine what is the wish with "Troll"or "Vampire". May be the law must exclude such possibilities for names. I want to turn the question back to the Finnish names. It's interesting what are the Finnish equivalents to the most popular names, like John, Peter, George, Paul, Maria, Jane, etc. These are considered to be "christian" names. What other kind of names are popular in Finland, what do they mean, write some of them.
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