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Post by sylvester on Jun 8, 2010 20:22:19 GMT 2
What I read in the English-language press from Romania is that the government is desperately trying to avoid falling into the same hole as Greece - but instead of tackling corruption and the black economy and making sure the rich people pay their taxes, they've decided to cut spending, including to the poorest people in society. Before they did that, would have been nice if they decided not to buy a bunch of F16's, maybe then the pensioners and mothers wouldn't have been slugged In Ro, the political class never changed since 89, when comunist polity falled, and transformed into a distorted democracy. Practicaly those guys who were at power by that time, turned democratic. They sold everything that they could, they failed to build a strong economy and that's the reason for the huge importation that we practice. All that they do is blaming each other for what is happening. Like you said the only solution that they found is to reduce salaries, pensions, help for unemployment(i hope i said right), kids allowance and so on. They don't want to tackle corruption because they are corrupted. And the problem is that citizens are not doing anything about it. This week, budgetaries had to go to walkout but many of them reconsidered their mind and went to work instead of protesting. Here, most of the people lost their hope of a better political class and of a healthy and well organized country.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2010 20:33:35 GMT 2
Unfortunately Sylvester, that's the correct image of polysicks in our country, in all aspects. And tis true, these days most of people lost hope or are just confused. I only put my hope in the young generation. If someone of your age is able to see things like you do..there's hope. And I am sure there are others also. By setting an individual example, and doing the things as they are to be done (maybe I use general terms,but you got the idea hopefully). What pains me most is the lost lives of the people, mostly young ones with the right attitude...those who died in the Revolution. They didn't die so that things don't change or get to the current situation. We had such hopes after '89....
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Post by kuusuru on Jun 9, 2010 0:41:28 GMT 2
In Ro, the political class never changed since 89, when comunist polity falled, and transformed into a distorted democracy. Practicaly those guys who were at power by that time, turned democratic. What happened to the Lustration Law (Legii lustraţiei)? Was that not supposed to kick the ex-communists out and keep them out? Maybe if that could be passed and enforced it would help.
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WikingMetal
Wolfcub
Juodaan viinaa, tullaan viisaammiksi n?in
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Post by WikingMetal on Jun 9, 2010 9:39:10 GMT 2
I'm not really interested in the politics of my country. They all seem the same to me, Labour, Liberal, both say they want more hospitals and doctors, both end up taking away from them. Both say one thing and do another, or do nothing at all, and tax us more. "You need to be taxed more, we don't really know why, but we're government so we'll do it anyway." Maybe there is a reason, but I just don't understand politics, never have. Don't really care to either, there will always be good and bad with every group, just have to put up with it I guess.
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Post by zlatovlaska on Dec 16, 2010 4:13:06 GMT 2
This thread is dead but meh, I'll revive it by posting about my beliefs.
A lot of people would call me some sort of a racist or Nazi, but I am a white Nationalist. I'm going to get a lot of bullshit for it, but I bet anyone giving me bullshit won't have any sort of clue what white Nationalism truly is, besides what the media WANTS everyone to think it is. I might even get the banhammer for admitting this here, but I don't see why I should.
I believe that only white Caucasians and Samis should be allowed to live in Europe, because they are the only groups that originate from Europe. I'm against all of this "diversity and multiculturalism" bullshit because it's a simple and calm way of saying "white people should be bred out of existence.".
I'm not any kind of a supremacist or racist, either. And I think genocide is wrong and that Hitler was really, really stupid. I bet this'll come across as a shocker to a lot of people. I absolutely loathe how so many people in the white Nationalist movement are still trying to make us all look like Hitler-worshipping racist Nazis.
I don't have an exact name for my political belonging, as "white Nationalist" doesn't really count as a political belonging...
Also, before anyone says anything, I don't support any form of violence or genocide or racial extermination. I'm against it, and that's what in the long run makes me a white Nationalist. And I'm also not a skinhead, in the KKK(not even American), or anything. And I don't believe any hair/eye colors are superior, although they may be much more attractive.
*preparing for hate comments*
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Post by Heer E. Tik on Dec 16, 2010 4:55:02 GMT 2
Politically, I am agnostic. I think this would be an actually accurate description of my political stance. I just don't know, y'know. Every system has its pros and cons. Some have more cons than pros. But ultimately it is up to the actual people in charge of those systems to implement them in practice, and thus are grand lofty ideals limited and restricted by someone's mortality at best, stupidity and incompetence and personal agenda at worst. Errata humanum est. I notice that alot of political allegiance and identity that people have arises out of opposition. As in, "I hate X so I will be Y." I see this in the States where it appears to be particularly virulent. Make no mistake, I love the US and I would never bash it, nor would stand idly by while others do. But there are aspects that cannot escape criticism. This virulent bi-polar partisanship of Democrats vs. Republicans gets under my skin so much that I become convinced the country will end up going down, if not in civil war and flames, then strangled in a straight-jacket of its own political correctness. I used to hate politics and wanted nothing to do with it. Now I hate politics just the same, but have lately found myself drawn to one side of the conflict and against another. I believe in the Constitution and the rights it guarantees, I believe in gun ownership and I believe in free market and limiting the government's control and grasp. (I notice that people in Europe are so anti-guns that the moment someone posted a pic of themselves with a gun on a Týr official forum, he got flaming hate-comments and slurs and insults of being such an evil gung-ho american. But what is the problem with law-abiding citizens responsibly owning firearms for defense and target practice? Criminals are less likely to attack if they suspect their victim nay be armed! If you ban guns, only criminals will have them. I'm not obsessed with modern weaponry - I still prefer swords and medieval arms - but gun rights have become such a symbol of constitutionally-guaranteed freedom that is in danger of being stripped away that I cannot stand idly by, and have decided that I am in favor of that freedom.) But I start noticing that even in the conservative, constitutionalist ranks, so much tenor is very oppositional, positioning themselves as AGAINST something rather than FOR. And here I am reminded by a great quote from Ursula LeGuin: "By opposing something, you maintain it." By opposing the virulent radical liberalism in the US, the conservative camp ends up playing by its rules and using the same vocabulary and basically being reactionary as opposed to pro-active. And that is sickening too. It only drains, as opposed to empowers. I am very glad to be removed from that boiling pot of rage by being here on the little island in the north, and every time I look up what's currently happening, it makes me wince. And I start looking it up less and less. People are turning into their political identities and wear slogans on their foreheads, as opposed to actually trying to demolish that binary partisan crap and forge some new unique path where Constitution is not in danger anymore. So there, I spilled it... it had to come out sooner or later. I'm a political agnostic, not a political atheist nor a political nihilist. I still have a hope that there may be a way out somehow, but I cannot subscribe to any one system or agenda, because these systems all look so different in different contexts. Nor do I rule out discussing this stuff with people of diverse political leanings - not to debate, but to openly discuss different sides and perspectives, what brings people to believe this or that. Very often personal experience shapes one's outlook, political as well as religious. Discussing those things on a personal level instead on ideological level can really be illuminating. And it allows to see the world from other perspectives. Another thing I noticed: Concepts with same names look entirely different in different countries. Liberals in the US are very different from liberals in Europe... Socialism in Argentina is very different from USSR... etc. So it really is difficult to speak for or against any system, if it depends so much on its own social context. Ideology in itself is empty, a castle in the sky, it all comes down to how specific people interpret or misinterpret in in a specific moment. Well I think I rambled long enough... :x
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Post by Heer E. Tik on Dec 16, 2010 5:57:21 GMT 2
This thread is dead but meh, I'll revive it by posting about my beliefs. A lot of people would call me some sort of a racist or Nazi, but I am a white Nationalist. I'm going to get a lot of bullshit for it, but I bet anyone giving me bullshit won't have any sort of clue what white Nationalism truly is, besides what the media WANTS everyone to think it is. I might even get the banhammer for admitting this here, but I don't see why I should. I believe that only white Caucasians and Samis should be allowed to live in Europe, because they are the only groups that originate from Europe. I don't think there would be an automatic ban for constructively discussing politics in a thread under that name. Some open-minded questions for you, zlatovlaska - not meant as a trap, but simply for sake of constructive discussion... Considering how much flak white nationalism gets in public perception, have you thought of re-naming your political stance any other way to set it apart from the stereotyped radical hate-propelled neonazism, or do you purposefully embrace that term along with the controversy that it evokes - even at the risk of being mistaken for something other than you are? I have been thinking about Europe and Europeans for a number of years - what do you make of the Great Migrations? Those same tribes who settled in Europe between ca. 300 - 600 AD have moved westward from the East, from Asian steppes, so their presence in Europe is rather not very long on the scope of several millennia - instead of originating in Western Europe, they only drove out whoever was there before (like Saxons did with Bretons). By that logic, middle-Asia has just as much right to be called a rightful place for caucasians as Europe itself. On a similar note, the Muslim presence in Spain during the dark ages (for Spain, the golden age) has paralleled time-wise the emergence of Carolignian Empire and the restructuring of Roman power in the Byzantium. Muslims are not caucasian, but by this same reasoning they have a legitimate claim to Spain, which is in Europe (I am pursuing this only in the present context's discussion, keeping this stuff separate from what is happening today with illegal immigration in Europe, etc - that is a separate subject..). The problem I have in understanding white nationalism lies in what I see as a homogeneous universalization of whiteness that it strives to achieve, pigeon-holing unique and individual cultures under one single brand of caucasianism. In wanting to keep Europe's identity free of multicultural diversity globalization agenda, that movement ironically globalizes (europe-izes) Europe by championing a pan-European, white identity above the more specific cultural identities. Such unity seems to me illusory and quite contrary to the diversity of many cultures and folks that are withIN Europe... Another thing I find hard to accept is the belief that caucasians in Europe have kept their ethnicities pure and apart. Starting with the Great Migrations and through the Dark Ages and Viking Age and then the Middle Ages, Europe was such a central meeting ground for traders and merchants with so many trade routes extending to so many distant places that I find it hard to believe there had been no inter-cultural mixing - indeed, I cannot believe there hadn't been any. The Varangian Way to Byzantium and back, the Mongolian Horde activities, the Crusades... the cross-pollination that went on makes it hard for me to envision pure-bred 100% nations that maintained the same gene pool since their inception. Throw into the mix all the wars that went on in Europe, from Medieval conquests to religious conflicts of the Reformation age to imperial ambitions of more modern times, with all those masses of soldiers moving to new places and all those transplanted refugees having to flee elsewhere... and the picture that emerges is rather muddy at best, in terms of pure-bred ethnicities. This is why I have a problem with such a concept as a white nation - it's such an artificial construct. One member may be from Italy, another from Spain, another from Greece. Does that make them my brothers somehow, just because I happen to be caucasian? To me, not at all... our cultures and cultural modes of behavior are so diverse that it's not even guaranteed we would get along at all. I find it more fulfilling to research my own genealogy and see what places my own family has come from, to have this personal cultural map that may indeed exert some influence over me both culturally and maybe even psychologically, personally... some of those places would exert a bigger pull than others, but they would intertwine - not intermix! - into a unique cultural portrait that is personal... And then, when I interact with others, my personal unique cultural portrait interacts with their personal unique cultural portraits, and either we get along well for having some things in common, or for understanding/respecting each other if we don't have things in common, or we don't. But personally I don't find a need for constructing some artificial overarching identity that tries to appropriate me, and would resist such pigeon-holing. Just my own two cents. However, I can understand how the current melting-pot situation in Europe can cause people to be concerned for their own cultural identities. After all, it is Napoleon's trans-national fraternité and egalité that caused the rise of German Romanticism... But though I sympathize, these days I realize more than before that it's a dangerous and betimes treacherous set of ideals to idly mess around with.
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Post by Bartbär on Dec 16, 2010 6:05:48 GMT 2
Keep on rambling sister. I like that term: politically agnostic. Agnosticism certainly is a big part of my beliefs in every and all things: some argue that there is so much information in the world that it is senseless to be agnostic, I however think that BECAUSE there is so information in the world it is even easier to be agnostic about everything because it's impossible to understand and interpret everything in the right way. I hate political dichotomies, it doesn't matter if I sometimes agree with one side more than the other I never agree with them completely, and even if I did I hate partisanship on every possible level. It leads to herd-like mentality of individuals voting not for individual merit and effectiveness but for this or that group. Don't get me wrong that CAN be effective in areas where neither side is completely clear and it's much easier to vote for someone you believe will represent your ideals over another, but when I see people never take other sides into consideration it frustrates me. As much as I dislike American Liberalism, there have been a very few democrats here whom have lead much more conservative examples than some of the Republicans I've seen; albeit very rare. You are spot on with the regional divide and regional interpretation: in terms of Socialism and America for instance I've always hated the idea. American culture is far too independent and competitor oriented to allow a socialist system to function properly. And although in that terms, and many others, I completely dislike socialism, I've noticed that at least in a good deal of the European countries that harbor a Socialist Democracy it actually works effectively: different culture and different interpretation can yield different results for a wide variety of political and economic standpoints. Although I still hold by the idea that communism is the worst possible government for any developed society, it is possible for communism to work on lower levels, however such levels are so few that it's almost insignificant. I actually just had almost that exact argument with a friend of mine recently and I got quite frustrated with them over it. Being that she lives outside of America she doesn't understand American culture and perhaps not much of American history, the constitution etc. To her apparently any gun-loving American is a typical redneck idiot with no brain and some ridiculous love for guns, and such vast generalizations piss me off to no end, and in all honesty I always HATE when I find out that certain dear friends seem to hold such views.... Such opposition to gun ownership and gun laws really aggravates me. I understand it's a different culture, I understand that America has a very specific brand of understanding towards guns that no other nation in the world does, but when people don't want to learn that culture or understand the reasoning behind it it always gets on my nerves. The biggest argument I can always make is this: if guns didn't exist and were never thought up than yes the world would be a very different place today, but not necessarily any better. The truth of the matter is though that guns DO exist, and the fact that everyone in the world knows about them means that they will ALWAYS exist until something is more accessible enough to take their place, and even than guns will exist because they hold a specific place in the heart of many cultures. Just like the English to this day harbor a love for the Longbow due to it's miraculous ability to help unite a fractured territory so too do us Americans hold a love for traditional Guns as the foundation for our liberties and the ink that stains the constitution that upholds these liberties. Thus rather than seek to try and abolish this existence which is futile it is best to understand gun laws and gun ownership rather than let emotion take over. Thankfully I had this same discussion with a friend today who happened to agree with me and hold the same love for gun ownership as you and I seem to Heer. Another good thing is Iowa recently passed it's concealed weapon law, so pistols and other such concealed weapons are now legal to carry in public given the right training of course. I only own a couple of guns, but I do see them as very useful pieces of both culture and art. Very few gun owners are not trained in their use, and trying to take these away from responsible law-abiding citizens is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of. I always enjoy that same thing too: an open-minded discussion with individuals who hold different viewpoints to see why they believe such things. Sadly it is hard to come by, as most people would rather try and debate their point (I, like you, HATE debate with a passion for the same reasons you stated in another post) or yell at you than to sit down over a cup of tea (or coffee for those stimulant lovers ) and discuss them passionately and with an open ear. My rant should stop here, although it is continuing in my mind. I'll try not to plague this post too much though. I'm glad to see this thread get more attention.
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Post by Bartbär on Dec 16, 2010 6:11:40 GMT 2
I will post more on zlatovlaska post later when my mind is ready to continue more political discourse. However I'd have to state very similar things to what Heer already has (although much less elaborately) and am curious to see your answers zlatovlaska. again no worries for traps. I'm an extremely open-minded person and I know most people on this forum are too.
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Post by Nordis on Dec 29, 2010 0:12:56 GMT 2
I haven't really contributed to this thread yet, mainly because I didn't give a damn about our national politics no more than half a year ago. I've been following the foreing policy of US and UK pretty closely as well as the tension in Middle-East for some years, but I guess I figured out that as boring as it seems, it's our own bland government that actually matters the most in my daily life. I suppose I'm kind of semi-leftish and liberal, but I totally refuse to stand behind any political party.
I'm really uncomfortable with the left vs. right and government vs. opposition settings. We have a government of 200 elected representatives, which is then reduced to a few parties and their disciplines, which are then controlled by the commercial sector and their interests. The whole government isn't anything but a theater to keep us citizens interested, amused and thrilled with it's dualism while the actual decisions are made behind the stage. Both wings spend their time trying to make each other and it's supporters look bad while the uneducated and frustrated public is dividing in two camps that gets more and more extreme every day from their far ends. The left wing "activists" were causing causing minor problems a few years ago by blocking streets and "protesting" by getting wasted, but this year it looks like the even worse right wing is on warpath. There was a tear gas strike to gay pride parade and finnish LGBTI's property has been under several attacks. Lots of people are more concerned about gay couples dancing in the independence day's ball than about the 50% cut of welfare from some groups of people. Needless to say that the support of a popularist right wing party that's really critical on immigration and whole EU has rocketed.
I've been thinking politics quite a lot in the past few months and they really make me feel uneasy and angry. I wish I could just ignore them and pretend they don't exist, but unfortunately I'm not the kind that can just look away while someone gets kicked to head. And that's just what this country is getting at the moment. Our new government will be elected in a few months and even though I've found a suitable nominee I know I will be deeply disappointed. For some reason democracy is seen as the holy cow that cannot be touched or even examined critically, even though in practice it's nothing but majority's dictatorship over the minority. No, I don't have any ready made alternative for it, but it's a field that needs some intensive study and developement. No matter what the political system is, there's always the same problem when human beings are involved: Some will always think that they are better than someone else, and because of that they can decide what's better for those poor sods. Or even worse, they think that it's ok to opress them. If there was such thing as equality, there wouldn't be a single war or any need for governments larger than maybe a village or suburb council.
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Post by kuusuru on Dec 29, 2010 0:56:38 GMT 2
I haven't really contributed to this thread yet Well, now that you have, congratulations on writing the best assessment I have ever read of politics in a modern democracy. I could not have said it better. It's no comfort, but know at least that the situation in your country appears to be the same in most other democracies. I used to wonder what on earth people saw in anarchy. I wonder less these days.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2010 9:46:51 GMT 2
Reminds me of a talk and some thinking that had not long ago upon this crisis all over Europe. To sum up: you kant not notice what's going on around, nor lose the big picture which is that people return to some more instinctive and intolerant acting because the democratic system failed too; it happens each time a politic system fails,things get confused and people tend to act on a first thought , very often inconsistent and inconsiderate. Ja, democracy failed, like many others systems, and finding an alternative it's hard, plus the interests of corrupted politicians will always rule the world. Depends on each individual if they go for the show, the drama play put on scene for us to bite by politicians: they are the same , just competing for some interests.
Something else: being equals is the best thing that can happen in a society, yet it's impossible. The utopia of it found in communist doctrine, never payed of in reality (thus another failed system); in theory things are most preferable like that, but they never apply entirely. How can they? Because we are born inequal: different backgrounds, some unfortunate (I can put here illnesses too; that changes the chances of having the same life as a healthy person unfortunately), different types of intelligence, etc.. we are too different and harmonise through honest dialogue and finding best solutions for a good life in society it's not easy. I don't have a solution either, but I think it's very hard to find the best politic solution for what happens now with deceiving democratic values falling apart. I am so afraid that we are close to witness the dawn of a new type of extremism, and one born out of frustration in which wicked web even intelligent people can get trapped..
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Post by Bartbär on Dec 29, 2010 10:04:26 GMT 2
Great post Nordis. I must say I don't think any of us have witnessed a true democracy, but that's not saying even then it's got it's problems. The majority rule thing really pisses me off. I have flirted with the idea of a Republic, namely because most of the well-spoken politicians in American History were those who built the damn country, and most of them envisioned a Republic. Again though it's hard for me to be political about anything. Politics absolutely intrigue me but at the same time completely disgust me. Everyone is so seemingly touchy about their political opinions and most of those people seem to be damn extreme in their beliefs. Whether it's left or right or up or down it's hard to find some middle grounders like myself... it's lonely in the middle haha I've flirted with the idea of anarchy, and a big part of me enjoys and agrees with it. Yet there are also big parts of me that wonderf it it's not one of those ideas that is a pipe-dream: an "ideal" (as ideal any political idea can possibly get anyway) future that is impossible because of one thing: human nature. I've noticed at least in America that people NEED a government, not because government truly is necessary but because they are so big on pointing the finger that government is the ultimate scapegoat. Even the harshest crackpot anti-government conspiracy theorists like government because then who else would they point their finger at other than themselves? In regards to the utopia of the communist doctrine I'd say the major fault there is that communism ISN'T equal, because despite every citizen grueling for food and water the one person on top is not. I also don't like the idea of equality period though. Unlike most I do not believe that everyone is equal, but that doesn't mean they don't have equal liberties. With that in mind a libertarian government would be pretty nice. It's just too bad though that with how people behave it's almost impossible to know if even that would be good. No political structure is at all perfect, because nothing accounts for individuality. Governments need to rule based on collectivism, because without jumbling everything up it would be impossible to rule. Sadly though without taking into account even the slightest existence of individuality a government can never truly be "ideal". And the same goes for pure individual-based leading. There's very little, if any, common ground, and sometimes I wonder if we'll ever really be satisfied with our government. Looking back I miss the Chivalric Monarchies: ones in which rulers ruled and everyone else could give a shit less what their politicians did because in reality as long as they were clothed, fed, could hold a family, there wasn't much to worry about. But "necessities" change (at least our perceptions of them) and with that so too must our political structure. Damn us, we think we are evolving every second of our existence, but sometimes I wonder if it's not really the other way around. Take not my words too seriously, I'm tired and this is a somewhat improved meditation. Hey, I've been absent from the forums lately so I have to type something don't I?
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Post by Arivse on Dec 29, 2010 19:12:59 GMT 2
Wow guys, are you sure that you haven't been politicians before this life? So much good opinions and different aspects.
I must say, that I'm too young to discuss about politics, My view aint wide enough to contemplate these things yet, since I don't want to hasten on things. At the moment my effect on political things is being restricted on voteing and bringing my opinions to public.
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Post by Nordis on Dec 30, 2010 9:49:21 GMT 2
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