Kirki
Eagle
Juominen on hyv?ksi sinulle!
Posts: 191
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Post by Kirki on Jun 19, 2009 19:16:12 GMT 2
I think I should at least wait until she is not taken.... lol
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Crystiannia
Clansman
"Here is the deepest secret nobody knows..."
Posts: 384
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Post by Crystiannia on Jun 19, 2009 19:33:57 GMT 2
I think I should at least wait until she is not taken.... lol I'm inclined to disagree with that!
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Post by Bartbär on Jun 19, 2009 23:19:09 GMT 2
Disagreed as well. I used to not like the idea of approaching someone while they were in a relationship, but my morality has changed since I have been through some crap. Now I sort of realize that if you are better for them than the other person, and genuinely have a connection with them and not just some lust, then there is no harm, no foul. Besides, sometimes it is the only way you have a chance, you never know what can happen or what can up. Although naturally of course one will only do what one feels they need to do. Hopefully she comes to her senses though and starts going after you. On my end love and relationships are falling apart. I haven't felt love in ages, and most of my friends that even live remotely close are moving, or if they are not moving they just no longer care to hang out due to being in their own world or change of personality. I haven't felt this desolte in a long time, and it really is an awful feeling. I've also had a couple falling outs with people, one in particular whom I've known for years and always cared about but just figured it is time to stop trying to help her out. I'm done helping people, they ask for your help but never use the advice, no matter how you deliver and no matter how much it would work. I just sort of feel like my childhood visions of me growing up to be an old man alone is going to come true, maybe not now, but in the long run. I don't know how I feel about that, but I don't want to be completely alone.
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Crystiannia
Clansman
"Here is the deepest secret nobody knows..."
Posts: 384
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Post by Crystiannia on Jun 20, 2009 0:55:23 GMT 2
They are the complexities that make human relationships both terrible and wonderful at the same time. Not everyone travels along the same path and then there are those of us that seem to be on an altogether different path then the rest-- dropped off in the middle of a world in which we don't exactly fit in and trying to find others. My mates are the most loving and light hearted souls and we love each other dearly, but for me, I still feel the role of the outsider as it has been ever since I can remember. The strange little girl in the library while the other kids were playing ball, the metalhead with the 2-inch thick English Lit books sitting under the trees. It would be nice to say that I've found a little kindred and perhaps a soulmate to inlcude on my adventures but after all this time I have not. Burned many times to many and unable to speak up to strangers, books and music remain my closest friends. Don't get me wrong, as I said, I do love my mates but it would be so nice to be understood. I told that joke I posted in the other thread to my mates the other night. I had to actually define the words "heathen" and then exaplin what "mead" was. They just shook their heads at the still strange little girl who refuses to grow up and enter their world on a full time basis. It's okay I guess but lonely none the less when just occasionally it would be nice to call up someone and say "Hey! Let's go to the store and harass the clerk for the new Tyr CD!" or "Wow! This axe would look so sweet with your new tunic!" I like to imagine that I make their world just a little less mundane. So when you find someone who your heart tells you would make the perfect companion for your quest in life SEIZE THEM! (Literally as well if the moment is right! )Whether it be as your lover or as your friend. It's so hard to find that sense of belonging that is so deeply important to us humans.
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Post by Heer E. Tik on Jun 20, 2009 0:59:44 GMT 2
Falling out with people due to change of their personality is sad. Not only is a friend lost, but there is realization that the friendship itself was a phase, not the time-defying connection one imagined it to be. Personally I am very good at maintaining connections on my end with any friend that I've made at any point in my life. Situations and years may alter a person, but that's part of the whole fun of keeping in touch, there's ever new things to talk about. If there was no change and if everyone remained the same it would get dull, with nothing more to say. Essentially, there are many different sides and facets to every person. Many different selves in one, so to say. We are attracted to our friend's true self, or what we like to think is their true self, based on their sincerity and candor of expression. Sometimes there may be a falling out between friends when one of them makes a sudden shift in their "selves", suddenly investing in an opposing/conflicting side, inwardly rejecting the true self that one's friend saw in them. There is either a falling out, or an attempt by the friend to cling to them still, still believing in the person's potential and seeing the best in them, and regarding their investment in a conflicting side of self as something phase-like... This kind of attachment and delusion will only lead to more conflict later on. We read so many cases, for example, of abusive dudes whose ladyfriends don't leave them because they still see the "best" in them. Sure, but one must recognize that there is a line to be drawn, that the other person is clearly not interested in working on one's self improvement.
It's an extreme example, but I'm sure everyone is familiar with the concept at large based on past friendships. Interests chance, ideologies change - but does a friend remain the same core "self" who can fit all those changes within the framework of one's life, the same core self that is sincere and willing to communicate openly and truly, the same self that attracted out friendship? Or is the person now closing up and conflicted and insecure? It's good and well to be able to see the best in others (and it's a talent that not everybody has...), but there may come a time to realize that in order to preserve your own peace of mind and inner harmony and healthy sense of self, there is no sense in straining yourself to still fit in that other person's altered world, and if indeed it becomes harsh and energy-draining then it may be best to limit one's interaction with them. I'm not a big fan of suddenly cutting all ties altogether (I've only done it once in my life, but trust me it was an extreme case), just we should be conscious of the fact that we cannot change someone else... and if they elected to change themselves beyond recognition or appeal, then they may no longer be the same person we used to know. I'm talking about 'change', not 'personal development'... there is a difference in someone "changing" and someone evolving based on life's experiences and ever expanding world-view.
Not sure if I succeeded in expressing it with clarity, it's a complex topic and nothing can be said overall, each case is always different. The post resulted out of my thinking about all the "friends" I made while being in college for four years in a major city - I counted them, and there are only two close friends left from that whole list who still keep in touch with me and care. Out of dozens of contacts and campus friendships and meaningful discussions - it's when you graduate and move on when you realize whose personalities are still close/connected to yours. College is an artificial environment, it creates illusion of sharing common situation when in fact each person comes from their own background, their own situation... After graduating, often there is no more to talk about because the illusion falls apart and you realize how different and alien those people and their lives really are.
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Post by Heer E. Tik on Jun 20, 2009 1:05:27 GMT 2
I think I should at least wait until she is not taken.... lol Dude, you are very logical and precise in your thinking, but don't let your thinking become your downfall If you went as far as to post about her in this thread, do the next illogical yet subtle step and give her a hint of your own availability. Don't impose of course, but a hint is enough. People never see what's under their very nose, and if you don't say/do anything she may just go for someone who approached her while you hesitated. If this sounds like a theatre tragedy play for a second, it's only because people have had those concerns for millenia... Don't become the next act, but be a happy ending. You're more familiar with the situation and the person, so do what you think is right, as long as you do it with no hesitation. Trust me, inaction leads to regret.
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Post by Heer E. Tik on Jun 20, 2009 1:25:20 GMT 2
@ crystiannia:
I was going to reply to the "broken heart is better than none at all" post but could not find it here to quote it, maybe you deleted it; but I actually agree with this quote. I'd rather have a broken one than breaking someone else's - rather live with confidence that I did all I could on my own part, than stooping so low as to get mired in manipulation games. Rather keep my humanity intact, you know... it hurts to be wronged, yet there is also comfort in knowing that you did nothing to provoke it, it came from external influence beyond your control, as you cannot control another's actions. There's a country song cliche that there's nothing more whole than a broken heart, and it's true in the way that it will ultimately lead to healing and greater inner strength of character, what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Whereas the heart-breaker will have to live with being an asshole and nothing to gain by that.
Don't wish for no heart at all though. There is a story by a German Romantic writer Dietrich Grabbe, called "Cold Heart". Retelling it will not be the same, search it out at your library under the writer's name and read it. About a man who cursed his own heart for its excessive feeling and its empathy and exchanged it for a stone. It's not the content really, but the way it's written - really gets to you... And it's got that dark Gothic Brothers Grimm-like atmosphere of horror about it, a great piece of literature even if it's only a short story.
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Post by Bartbär on Jun 20, 2009 2:47:31 GMT 2
Hjalagh, your whole description about the different between a friend changing between a friend losing their true self was dead on.
I agree, I enjoy to watch a friend change, in that they are their own true selves but with different thoughts here and there, different outlooks, etc. Yet the same core. It is the loss of self that I cannot stand to see, and that is what I am currently witnessing.
She has lot herself, I see that through her obvious insecurities. She has always tried to hide contemplation by relationships. She would rather be with another boyfriend, that she claims to have such great feelings for, than to remain single and think about who she is. She is not anymore what I remember her being. And I am no longer in the business of trying to change people. I have made that mistake in the past, and I do not care to continue making it again. Of course you cannot change anyone, you can merely help them to see that they need improvement, it is up to them to change.
I have not yet read "Cold Heart" by Dietrich Grabbe, but it sounds fantastic. I am a sucker for German Romantic stories of any form, so I will search it as soon as possible, hopefully I can find a copy to rent at the library.
This reminds me of the conversation that I had with my friend, in which ultimately lead him to recommending me that "Equilibrium" movie. The movie describes a society that supresses emotion, because emotion is what causes rage, which leads to war and strife. There are groups of "Sense offenders" who refuse to take the injection that supresses emotion. When it goes through it, the people mention how they would gladly trade in a society with no war and supposed peace, if it meant that they could feel again. Even all the bad stuff, because emotion is what makes us human and without that we are nothing. Very great concept, one that in my opinion can never be overused.
A broken heart is the worst pain I can remember feeling in my entire life. But I gladly accept that pain if it meant that I felt something so deep before it. At least when I had that pain OI could recognize that I was human. Without emotion, of any kind, you just feel numb. And that is no fun at all.
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Crystiannia
Clansman
"Here is the deepest secret nobody knows..."
Posts: 384
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Post by Crystiannia on Jun 20, 2009 19:15:23 GMT 2
@ crystiannia: I was going to reply to the "broken heart is better than none at all" post but could not find it here to quote it, maybe you deleted it; but I actually agree with this quote. I'd rather have a broken one than breaking someone else's. I always thought that wouldn't it be so much better for us if we could simply pick & choose who to fall in love with? That way there could be no broken hearts or desperate longing from afar. Certainly then if that were true the world would probably become such a gray place. How many songs and epics are written on the basis of lost love and hope to find it once more? Love, even the most heartbreaking kind, does color the world and it is needed, I happily bow to that. But in my case, and maybe because I am overly sentiMENTAL and very assured in who I am and what I want in a partner, love is simply a set up for me to be pushed over some massive chasm of dispair. (WOW! Note to self: Layoff the Victorian poetry! ) So for me now I think it is time that I put all thought of finding my other heart aside. Maybe not for eternity but at least for the time it takes for someone to restore it. Now, of course, as much as it displeases me, I am but a mere mortal woman... so should the qualified poetic viking warrior attempt to seize me, I will most likely just close my eyes and jump willingly into that chasm anyway! ;D
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Post by Bartbär on Jun 20, 2009 19:25:57 GMT 2
Love is an abyss of sorts. It is something you are risking to gain or lose from every time you jump in. Although I would argue that it is only something to gain. Sure, years can go by that seem to mean nothing once you are no longer with that someone, but like the saying goes "It's not the destination, it's how you get there." You are bound to hit a lot of roads, and feel like you lose a lot, but upon meditation and learning there is only miles of bounty to obtain. Sometimes you just have to sit back and let Love to come to you. I've spent most of my life looking for it (although I am very young, I was a romantic from childhood, either too young or old for my time, I haven't found out which yet) and to no avail. It is something that will come when it is intended to and once we stop begging for it. It is like the wanderer, he wanders not in search of something, but for the mere enjoyment of the treasures his paths bring him. Just like the great Tolkien poem goes "Not all who wander are lost." We need to be this wanderer as well when it comes to love. Simply walking along unknown paths until eventually, not upon search but upon spontaneity, we find that path to Love. There are few qualified partners on both sides. I can easily say it is hard to find a good woman just as it is to find a good man, but to say that would be casting aside all the lovely women I know, including all the great ones I have talked to on here. We are all around, we may not always be available, or we may not always be noticeable, but we are always there.
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Post by Heer E. Tik on Jun 21, 2009 6:01:54 GMT 2
It's a good comparison of love to a chasm/abyss. Especially because of the English phrase, "to fall in love". In other languages there's no "fall" involved, but here it's very particular. It reminds me of Kierkegaard's famous "leap of faith" - in a way, all kinds of sincere love are a leap of faith, not just the spiritual fervor he was referring to. Jumping over the edge and pushing oneself away from the concrete notions of "reason" into something greater and more encompassing than what mere reason may define or explain. There's an element of vulnerability here: what will happen after the leap? Will there be someone to catch you half-way, as the acrobats do, or will your leap be unrequited and doom you to a hard fall into the abyss? (It's no coincidence I think that most of the acrobats who enact this on the trapeze are actually spouses/couples.) But there is also an element of soaring free. What will happen to you after the leap? Will you let yourself fall, or will you become one with the waves of air and let this experience, which transcends mere reason, transform you? And, another question to ask: after experiencing devastating falls, will you have the courage and the heart to take this leap again?... There's no easy answers of course, and indeed much of the greatest literature is full of all sorts of different answers to these questions, based on the poets'/writers'/playwrights' own experiences. Crystiannia, if you insist on laying off the Victorian poetry, then I suggest diving into some German Romantic poetry for a change Allow me to quote some more Heine here (who, ironically, only started to write poetry after having gone through some significant heartbreakage himself) - translations follow after the originals - Wer zum ersten Male liebt, Seis auch glücklos, ist ein Gott; Aber wer zum zweiten Male Glücklos liebt, der ist ein Narr. Ich, ein solcher Narr, ich liebe Wieder ohne Gegenliebe! Sonne, Mond und Sterne lachen, Und ich lache mit — und sterbe. He who for the first time loves, E'en rejected, is a god. He who loves a second time, Unrequited, is a fool.
Such a fool am I, in loving Once again with no return. Sun and moon and stars are laughing; I am laughing too—and dying.* * * Ich unglückselger Atlas! eine Welt, Die ganze Welt der Schmerzen, muß ich tragen, Ich trage Unerträgliches, und brechen Will mir das Herz im Leibe. Du stolzes Herz! du hast es ja gewollt! Du wolltest glücklich sein, unendlich glücklich Oder unendlich elend, stolzes Herz, Und jetzo bist du elend. I, a most wretched Atlas, the huge world, The whole huge world of sorrow I must carry. Yea, the unbearable must bear, though meanwhile My heart break in my bosom.
Thou haughty heart, thyself hast willed it thus, Thou wouldst be happy, infinitely happy, Or infinitely wretched, haughty heart! And lo! now art thou wretched.
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Crystiannia
Clansman
"Here is the deepest secret nobody knows..."
Posts: 384
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Post by Crystiannia on Jun 21, 2009 18:40:04 GMT 2
Thank you Hjalagh!! How perfect is that poem!! Think I will definately move in a different direction...
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Post by Bartbär on Jun 21, 2009 21:36:55 GMT 2
YES! Thank you Hjalagh for converting another one! I've enjoyed what little I have read in the victorian literature, but my heart always will remain in German Romanticism. The analogies, the beautiful metaphors of a very beautiful language, the tone and the magnificence is just untouched by any other era. Granted I do Love many other styles, but home is here for me. The thing I love about German romanticism is the constant use of Nature in connection to human thought, emotion, and experience. Often times you read it and feel that overly Heathen state of mind, a sort of endless connection with the natural world and how it invokes such powerful emotion in man. German Romanticism could easily have it's own thread, to share the poetry and the prose of great authors, but I think to share it here is still very very fitting. Naturally, of course! I need to read more Heine still, but the more you share, the more I am urged to start sooner than expected!
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Post by Heer E. Tik on Jun 22, 2009 1:03:08 GMT 2
That's actually two poems, not one. They have different metres, and I tried separating them with a ***. So far everything I've quoted from Heine comes from his first poetry collection called "Buch Der Lieder" (Book of Songs), published in 1827. (My alma mater's library actually has the first edition of this book, and I have been fortunate enough to hold it in my hands and spend as much time with it in the research room as I wished. There is also the first edition of Goethe's "Werther" there, from 1774, but I digress...) "Buch Der Lieder" contains Heine's poetry about/inspired by his early misadventures in both love and friendship, as well as about his travels around Germany. He doesn't follow the Romantic conventions but injects a great deal of his own self-awareness in his verse, resulting in poetry that is very personal and very original and direct. Also, very keen social observations. Without sugar-coating anything he just says it like it is.
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Post by Heer E. Tik on Jun 24, 2009 6:00:07 GMT 2
Another observation about friendship...
The social networking sites these days are competing to be the ultimate in staying "connected" to one's friends, but they seem to actually be replacing the real-life friendship with a cyber illusion of connectedness. Increasingly, it feels more and more awkward to pick up a phone and call your friend, then it begins to feel awkward to email the friend directly because that's, well, too direct and invasive, however sending a note through a myspace or a facebook or leaving a generic comment on the page that says "what's up?" is more and more acceptable... Such sites have their benefits I guess, but they're making people forget the art of staying in touch the real way... though interpersonal communication, snail mail, and phonecalls. These days people freak out if their messages haven't been replied to for three days, but it used to take a longer time for letters to arrive, yet friendships were only strengthened instead of weakened by the delay in communication. For good friends living far apart, there used to be customs (varies by person, but I used to do it) such as exchanging phone calls every [insert time period here -week, month, etc] and catching up periodically. In the meantime between the calls, friends have no idea what's happening to their buddies and they eagerly waited for them to call and tell all about their latest happenings... nowadays everyone can just check their myspace or their facebook and it's all posted there each and every day in every gross little detail that didn't even need sharing.
I'm not anti-myspace or anti-facebook (I stopped using facebook though and won't start again), but there sure are alot of people on such sites who are prone to oversharing... As much as such social sites are good for making new contacts, they're also prone to creating "not so good" contacts, people who you don't even care that much about and with whom you only exchange myspace messages because you're bored and got no one else to talk to, because there's this virtual disconnect from the real world. So the "friend" list keeps growing, yet you realize that hardly any one of those people are worth their weight in beer and hardly any are worth meeting, yet you continue to stretch yourself thin by convincing yourself that you have things in common to talk about, even though the whole conversation consists of shooting the mundane shit, so to speak, with nothing substantial to say at all.
What do you guys think about social networking sites vs the value of friendship?
For me, it cheapens this concept in a way... I still have a myspace but am not active on it anymore, the forum format is becoming my only way of "talking to the world" beside my email, probably due to the fact that there is a higher conversation factor, and thus higher factor of actual exchange of ideas that's more meaningful and fulfilling than leaving myspace comments on myspace profiles (and if you don't exchange comments there you get deleted from someone's friend list, so much for the whole idea of what "friendship" is supposed to signify, heh).
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