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Post by kuusuru on Mar 29, 2011 13:25:04 GMT 2
I mentioned gothic metal purposely. Well, where’s that tide nowadays? I think you should read more carefully the words of Heer, especially when she talks about the needs of the performers and the audience, and perhaps then you might reconsider your argument that "gothic metal is dying, so folk metal must die too". Not all genres of metal are doomed the way you claim gothic metal is (I'm not denying your claim, but I don't follow goth metal so cannot comment on whether or not that is the case  ). Consider the subject matter of gothic metal, the philosophies, the moods and visions which the artists seek to create and share with the audience, presumably addressing two sets of needs which must to some extent overlap (otherwise the audience is just there for the beer, and it's cheaper to drink at home ;D ). It's not real happy-go-lucky stuff, is it? There might be times in your life when goth themes and goth metal really hit the spot, but I don't think it's going to be a lifelong passion or pursuit for a lot of people. Folk metal, on the other hand, serves the needs of a large cross-section of the metal demographic, from kids to eläkeläiset  and you see them all at the gigs. It's fun. It's entertaining, it's enjoyable, it's there when you want to party (Korpiklaani) and it's there when you're introspective (Fejd) and it's there when you're feeling nostalgic (Glittertind) and when you want to escape to the mountains (Negură Bunget) and when you want to rock really hard (Moonsorrow) and... I can't imagine a day without folk metal . This broader appeal to a wider and more durable audience is why I think you can't really draw a comparison between the (alleged) demise of gothic metal, and folk metal. I don't see folk metal dying out any time soon, if anything, it seems to be thriving Horns up indeed \m/. But no kisses to you from me, I'm sure we're both happier that way  |
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Post by stan on Mar 29, 2011 16:12:00 GMT 2
"I think you should read ... and perhaps then you might reconsider your argument that "gothic metal is dying, so folk metal must die too". " I think we changed the subject big time: quest was not if it is dying or not; but if it could "preserve"some old culture and tradition. And my opinion was that postmodern subcultures are kind of quotation, and they depend on time, place and as Heer said - depend on Who-to Whom talks, etc. And as a tide - they rise and fall, they have their "place and time", "specific conditions " (on this YOU read Heer carefully) which brings them to life (and death) and which determine the choice what to "preserve" (citate) and how to "preserve" (citate) it. Heer wrote a lot on this, that's why I concentrate on "place and TIME"or "tide". Or DEATH if you preffer that way... And Goth was only an example. I mentioned black also, but you said nothing about it "Not all genres of metal are doomed the way you claim gothic metal is " Yea, Manowar will live foerevermore! "Consider the subject matter of gothic metal, the philosophies, the moods and visions which the artists seek to create and share with the audience, ...." - Excuse me? Even when the audience "thinks of the vokals as an aditional instrument"? You do speak Norsk? Suomi? Estonian ? Romanian? ...?  ".... otherwise the audience is just there for the beer, and it's cheaper to drink at home ;D )." - Or maybe audience is there for the musik? Don't you assume that someone could be going to a concert not because of Kalevala or Odin, but just because of the musik? As long as musik's good - the audience is there. Otherwise - people stay home, drinkin beer. Or choose another band to listen to. And I think no "call to arms" and "call to battle for trve metal" will bring them back to concert hall " It's not real happy-go-lucky stuff, is it? There might be times in your life when goth themes and goth metal really hit the spot, but I don't think it's going to be a lifelong passion or pursuit for a lot of people. " - Depeche Mode isn't happy-go-lucky stuff too, but they stayed around for 30 years. Because they changed the way they play the blues (what I said about BM and enslaved; DB; etc.) "Folk metal, on the other hand, serves the needs of a large cross-section of the metal demographic, ... This broader appeal to a wider and more durable audience is why I think you can't really draw a comparison between the (alleged) demise of gothic metal, and folk metal. " - "the broader appeal... " is an argument I have to agree with. It is a chance for surviving longer, finding the musical arguments for a change in its own musical framework/tradition. But i won't bet on this. And after all - "philosophy" (as you call it) must change also. No Kalevala. No Odin. No Vikings. You said Moonsorrow - look at the new Moonsorrow album concept and will see what I mean " I don't see folk metal dying out any time soon, if anything, it seems to be thriving " - AMEN! ;D horns up! |
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Post by wolferin on Mar 29, 2011 17:10:09 GMT 2
Well, about preservation of folklore traditions, may be the inderect role of folk metal is bigger than the direct reflection. Folk metal provokes interest in people from different age about myths, ancient music, languages, etc. When you want to understand better what these people are singing about, you seek here and there for info and even it can be said intercultural exchange appear.
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Post by azurae on Mar 30, 2011 3:40:29 GMT 2
Pardon if I take your quote out of context, but one thing stood out for me here... Be careful in your discourse on music being a "preservation measure" - while of course true in that it keeps certain folkloric themes, motifs, and literatures alive in listeners' imaginations, remember that music is not a mere transparent transmitter connecting the present with the past, but the musicians and performing artists - indeed, whether they are aware or not - actively shape and (re)interpret that same past for their audiences. Yes, that is a very, very important bit of information to keep in mind. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was going to ignore possible source biases or the interpretive nature of the subject. Not to mention the need for my own very careful wording! It was always in the back of my mind, but I'll admit that now that you've mentioned it, it's been in the forefront (as well it should be when doing any type of research), so thank you for that. I don't know how to quote more than one person within a post, but this has been a great response from everyone! All of the links (thanks Tiina, Wolferin) and direction to look at certain bands are very helpful. It's good to get a more concrete idea of the problems inherent with this as a subject, along with a broader understanding of what will and won't work from a slightly more technical standpoint. Maybe I will return a little later to finish this thought (not sure I fleshed it out as I wanted to), but since I am low on battery, I'll cut it off here for now. |
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Post by Heer E. Tik on Mar 30, 2011 23:18:30 GMT 2
Post content deleted and overridden by Heer E. Tick. I have decided to stop spilling my elaborate thoughts on the web in answer to people who are obviously fishing for free and anonymous insights to appropriate into their own research. It is painfully obvious that the starter of this topic has no interest in legitimately engaging the forum and becoming a part of the posting community, nor an interest in keeping the said community updated regarding the progress of this legitimately interesting research. Given these factors, I refuse to have the fruit of many hours of my time (aka my long posts in response to the productive discussion which resulted in this thread) floating on the free world wide web for any lazy lurking pseudo-armchair-academic to pick up. Though I have decided to delete the contents of my posts in this thread, I have saved this content on an external source. If anyone of the long time members of this forum thinks that I have made a mistake in this reasoning or this reaction, and thinks that my deletions are interrupting the flow of the thread, please let me know. There is a chance I may add the contents back, but I hope that you can understand or at least appreciate why I feel and think about this as I do. Read more: jonne.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=intellectual&thread=572&page=1#ixzz1Zxk8H2at |
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Post by kuusuru on Mar 31, 2011 1:37:47 GMT 2
I can totally empathize with your view, but I'm sure you won't disagree that your view is that of a big folk metal fan who finds it deeply meaningful (or simply hella fun) and can therefore see its long-term lasting potential. It's still an insider's view, though, whose enthusiasm for it disposes towards interpreting it as singular and uniquely relevant. Well, yes, of course - but I'd like to think I can also apply a critical eye to the subject. My own education, interests and experience over the last 20 years include mathematics, risk analysis and computer science, so I am keenly aware of the potential for cognitive bias. I try to base my comments not on fanboism but observations and data Hmm... by what measure do you think it's crescendoed? In terms of sales it doesn't appear to have - according to YLE (for what it's worth) Ukon Wacka charted at 9, which is the highest KK have achieved in their home country (out of the albums listed there, and it's not complete). ylex.yle.fi/listaPerhaps it's crescendoed in terms of originality - but despite the inevitable carpetbaggers and scenewhores, every now and then a band like Fejd comes along to push the boundaries a little further. Aha... I speak only of folk metal within Europe, and really only those areas with which I am familiar, where I travel, have ties to and understand the culture - and that's really only Finland and Romania (Doi de patru nu e rău! Dar întotdeauna produc verze  ). The scene in the US could be collapsing, it could be collapsing around the world for all I know, there's certainly no scene (and never has been) here in Oz, the zenith might have come and gone... but the few gigs I get to these days, I see plenty of people handing over their cash for a ticket. I see the merchandise stand cleaned out, I hear new bands emerging, I see kids barely out of school putting together bass/drums/guitar + flute/fiddle/crumhorn and playing in paddocks in the middle of nowhere. Skyclad have been around for, what, 20 years? Korpiklaani has a lineage stretching back over 10, it's nearly 15 years since my Orphaned Land CD's arrived (from France, of all places ;D ). I'm not suggesting folk metal will go on forever, but I do think that it will be around for a long time yet, and probably longer than has been suggested in this thread. If it has peaked in some places, it certainly hasn't elsewhere, otherwise woe would be me. Or maybe I'm just a fanboi blinded by my slavish devotion to the genre. Let's meet back in a few years and see ;D |
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Post by Heer E. Tik on Mar 31, 2011 4:47:24 GMT 2
Post content deleted and overridden by Heer E. Tick.
I have decided to stop spilling my elaborate thoughts on the web in answer to people who are obviously fishing for free and anonymous insights to appropriate into their own research.
It is painfully obvious that the starter of this topic has no interest in legitimately engaging the forum and becoming a part of the posting community, nor an interest in keeping the said community updated regarding the progress of this legitimately interesting research. Given these factors, I refuse to have the fruit of many hours of my time (aka my long posts in response to the productive discussion which resulted in this thread) floating on the free world wide web for any lazy lurking pseudo-armchair-academic to pick up.
Though I have decided to delete the contents of my posts in this thread, I have saved this content on an external source. If anyone of the long time members of this forum thinks that I have made a mistake in this reasoning or this reaction, and thinks that my deletions are interrupting the flow of the thread, please let me know. There is a chance I may add the contents back, but I hope that you can understand or at least appreciate why I feel and think about this as I do.
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Post by kuusuru on Mar 31, 2011 5:18:37 GMT 2
Kuusuru: I'm sure you understood Ahh... thanks for such an interesting post, but I'll need time to consider it fully . Just want to clarify my intentions too are totally peaceful and toward an informed discussion. This is a subject which interests me greatly and being down here at the arse-end of the world I feel pretty remote from it most of the time... so it's great to be able to exchange opinions with people who have a different perspective. I'll read your post a few times, digest it, and maybe come back with some more questions and comments. Again, cheers! . I can imagine how much time you spent putting it together and appreciate that very much, rest assured it will receive the attention it deserves, which is why it might take me a while to respond. Age might bring experience but it also brings impairment |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2011 10:47:59 GMT 2
None of us is right, yet we all are. The truth lies not in just one point of view, but in the gathering of all of them, offering a an entire perspective of the highs and lows that folk metal has and will have with all the implications in people's life as a contemporary vehicle of lore and old or newer traditions, etc. Blame perspectivism if you like, but I do fancy it as a system of thinking... It's all about unique points of unique individuals, that paint together the canvas of a truth or state of facts, in the colours of their time. I stand as a simpleton with a reasonable thinking that believes in the power of the written words. The words that will never fade, but remain through some means preserved, and which, if not used with ponderance and sense, may damage what is meant to be a good discussion in which spirits aren't stirred or provoked, but instead be ready to accept the differences as differences and not as the wrong ones. Where there's not constructivity, but stubborness we get a ruined atmosfere. And it's something I'll not help with on this forum I treasure very much and with good reasons. Which is why I agree with Heer's point on having a disscussion here , not a debate. |
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Post by wolferin on Mar 31, 2011 13:26:00 GMT 2
I stand as a simpleton with a reasonable thinking that believes in the power of the written words. The words that will never fade, but remain through some means preserved, and which, if not used with ponderance and sense, may damage what is meant to be a good discussion in which spirits aren't stirred or provoked, but instead be ready to accept the differences as differences and not as the wrong ones. Where there's not constructivity, but stubborness we get a ruined atmosfere. And it's something I'll not help with on this forum I treasure very much and with good reasons. Which is why I agree with Heer's point on having a disscussion here , not a debate. I have a very little time and I'll only write, that I totally agree with this. This forum is a very pleasant plase with good mood and attitude between the participants, without provocations and insulting debates and let's remain like this. |
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stan
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Post by stan on Mar 31, 2011 15:15:53 GMT 2
I stand as a simpleton with a reasonable thinking ..... And it's something I'll not help with on this forum I treasure very much and with good reasons. Which is why I agree with Heer's point on having a disscussion here , not a debate. ..... This forum is a very pleasant plase with good mood and attitude between the participants, without provocations and insulting debates and let's remain like this. @ Tiina & Wolferin can't get it right maybe: someone feels insulted? to provoke and to insult - different things for me. if you feel it other way - let me know @ Heer: it could not be a disscussion anymore - not for me. You smashed us with your knowledge on folk/pagan/viking metal both ways: as a factology and as an academical rationalization... (here instead of emoticon stands "MY hammer smashed face" if you preffer, and if not feel insulted also) what impressed me much is what you say about US - I believed tide is growing there now, you said other. now, it seams to me there's another mandatory point of view an academical research on that topic must not skip - country differences of the "tide"(sorry for using that word for ease; maybe it is an insult "ON THIS FORUM", which I treasure ALSO much, BTW); or at least of the main countryes in which situation differs - for me, according to your post, these are US, Scandinavia, Germany and/or Austria. have a nice day everybody |
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Post by maris on Mar 31, 2011 20:44:37 GMT 2
Think this is gonna be my longest post this far, read every post in this discussion and found it all very interesting, so I thought mayby time to share you guys how I see it None of us is right, yet we all are. The truth lies not in just one point of view, but in the gathering of all of them, offering a an entire perspective of the highs and lows that folk metal has and will have with all the implications in people's life as a contemporary vehicle of lore and old or newer traditions, etc. Blame perspectivism if you like, but I do fancy it as a system of thinking... It's all about unique points of unique individuals, that paint together the canvas of a truth or state of facts, in the colours of their time. It's not only about the gathering of them but also as an individual to be able to dissociate from your own PoV of what you think it should be and look at it from a distant or even look at a totally different point of view and take in the deeper similarities/differences between those ways of thinking. Sometimes that looking outside of your own thinkingbox creates a whole new way on how you previously looked at it and after you did. I think that's the whole point of it to keep movement in your thinking and to be able to grow and evolve with your own experiences and hearing other people's views and melding it together to make a new personal vision. And not stopping and keep holding on to that opinion; In the end it will get you nowhere. In my general experience I must say that people who listen to folk metal already have a higher interest in history, folklore, languages and/or mythology. And when hearing a certain band/song it will trigger that interest to do some digging (if I may call it that way) about it. Take the forum for example. And I know it's only a small piece in the whole picture, but it's pretty extraordinary that only on this forum alone are that many people of all ages with these similair interest and all having/sharing their vision on it with others. I even think that sometimes the language doesn't even form a barrier between the song and the listener, because when the song is powerful enough it ignites the fuse of the "ancient" emotion of feeling. You know that you can't understand even a single word of the language but you get a really strong feeling of the general idea the song is about. |
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stan
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Post by stan on Apr 1, 2011 11:51:33 GMT 2
Sometimes people who insist on taking other opinions into consideration do finish their thesis with “In MY opinion…”. There was a nice joke in the very beginning of the post-communist epoch popular here in Bg: “on the topic of pluralism could not be different opinions”. If someone thinks it is a difficulty and good achievement “to hear other people’s views” (which I admit), for me there is something much harder than this: trying to find and “see” bias in your own point of view. And that doesn’t mean “melding” your own perspective with other ones perspectives in attempt to get some “canvas of a truth” by “gathering them together”. First – I don’t believe “a Truth” exists. Second, but not last – I DO believe in the right of a personal view and on the right to stand up for it. BUT: as long as you do that with arguments, not with some personal feelings (“I can’t imagine a day without folk metal”- so what, how that makes folk metal more vital, kuusuru? I personally can’t imagine a day without having 30 cigarettes but that doesn’t mean there is NOT an obvious tendency of more people giving up smoking and more youngsters who do not even start smoking). Or arguments, sorry Tiina, with some “personal prophetic radar” (after such an argument I couldn’t be serious anymore and that’s why I answered on that post a bit ironically). But that’s enough on the topic of “other people’s views”. Now I’ll shortly try to mark the bias in my own view here. Or that bias which I am able to “see”. First and main bias: I didn’t display “in full” my own view on that topic but stressed on the very extreme of it. I did so because of 3 main reasons – 1. I’m not sure in my English as Heer is; 2. I think Heer made that very, very well and thoroughly even on her first post – so I can add more on that; 3. I believed when you don’t have time to do so you could only MARK the extremes of your point of view (in what it differs) and that will be a good reason for the others to explain THEIR point of view if it differs. Even in its extremities – I do not fear of facing opinions VERY different from mine, provocative also. On the contrary - I do admire provocation. Cause for me exactly the extremities in the opposite view could provoke ME (or whoever stands on the OTHER side) to mistrust my/his own perspective and to become much more relative. So, what do I doubt NOW in my personal view? Main thing – “One Tide” which is going to its “fall/death”. As Heer showed (and I take her opinion reliable because she shows great interest and experience on the topic of pagan/Viking/folk metal) there are different “stages” and different situation in different “national” context. As she showed well (and I did not take an attention on before she said that): “For countries in Scandinavia, no special cause is needed at all: it's their own perceived cultural heritages and interest in the same is not likely to wane anytime soon indeed.” So, now I think that even when all those different (geographically) tides are gone (or “scenes collapsed all over the world” – as kuusuru said) it still will be maybe even broad folk metal “scene” in these countries. But on what I do not still change my mind is that geographically broad interest will not go down in few years and furthermore: world market interest to folk/pagan/viking metal will not “implode”. Of course that does not mean there will not be bands who still sell well on the global market (not only in Finland, kuusuru). But that will be “the fall” or “death” of the broad interest of which I was talking in my first post here. This brings me to the point of “preservation” – with which all this started. Well, for some countries (I quoted Heer on these countries already) folk metal maybe is a preservation of what is “own cultural heritages”. BUT even for those is still valid the problem of “Who-to Whom-talks” and what is “quoted” from that heritage. With the point of view that folk metal world tide/tides provoke - I will quote Maris on thi, but Wolferin was also talking about this – provokes: “higher interest in history, folklore, languages and/or mythology. And when hearing a certain band/song it will trigger that interest to do some digging (if I may call it that way) about it. Take the forum for example. “ - on this point of view I still Do have seriously doubts! And, Maris, I absolutely will not take THIS forum for example, because one of the main biases one could allow is by taking his own surrounding/society as representative! But, Maris, let suppose if I do that and take as example even the biggest KK family – their Facebook friends. They are even broader society - close to 200 000 people and could be much representative example than we here are. What do you see when you scroll that page: people interested and going there just to shout out loud the names of two ancient gods: BEER and VODKA. Maybe soon will be added the name of a Mexican ancient god… But, Maris, I doubt that there are many people even on that forum which may say (if they don’t use Google) what has Odin lost his eye for?… Or even which song on the new KK album is based on Kalevala story? And here is a question to every one of you who feels interested on the topic of subcultures and “preservation”: how many of you people could say, that they know much better eastern philosophy and religion, or even have a growing interest in it, due to the hippy movement in the early 70’s? Think about that: what remains after such a GIANT tide goes down. I’ll stop here. Think said more than enough. Nice weekend everyone |
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Post by drinkingtea on Apr 7, 2011 4:59:26 GMT 2
I am beginning a new project on how metal music (esp folk metal) is keeping history and folklore relevant and interesting to younger generations, and in some ways helping to keep oral traditions alive. I'm responding fairly late to this - and after some amazingly intelligent, well thought out posts - but wanted to chime in. I think that folklore and music do have one thing in common. Both have an amazing capacity to change yet hold on to the spark that keeps it what it is. I think interest in the past and folklore tends to wax and wane, but there does seem to be an intersection between the creative people who are drawn to both folklore and metal right now. I hope I am not going too far off topic here and killing this great thread, but one of my interests is seeing how metal music and metal culture, seems to fit into whatever culture turns up in. Metal is like water in that way; it will expand and contract, and bend and flow to fit whatever vessel it happens to be in, but it's still definably metal. For example, here is a clip from a band in Iran where you can see some of the differences compared to Western culture, but it's still identifiable as a metal gathering: www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGtL_M9FXKwHere is a clip from Mongolia that has a really interesting mixture of styles but, to me anyway, still sounds like a flavor of metal: www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGtL_M9FXKwI think the inherent cohesiveness of both forms of art - metal and folklore - both lend themselves well to renewing themselves while retaining the kernel of identity and seem to be a natural fit for one another for now. Metal will change, as will any art form, but change isn't necessarily destruction. |
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Post by maris on Apr 7, 2011 18:15:25 GMT 2
I am beginning a new project on how metal music (esp folk metal) is keeping history and folklore relevant and interesting to younger generations, and in some ways helping to keep oral traditions alive. I think the inherent cohesiveness of both forms of art - metal and folklore - both lend themselves well to renewing themselves while retaining the kernel of identity and seem to be a natural fit for one another for now. Metal will change, as will any art form, but change isn't necessarily destruction. You mean something like that metal is leaving room open for people's interpretations on how it should sound and the ability to integrate their own traditional instruments into the music besides drums, bass and guitars etc. to make it part of their own culture and influenced by it |
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and you see them all at the gigs. It's fun. It's entertaining, it's enjoyable, it's there when you want to party (Korpiklaani) and it's there when you're introspective (Fejd) and it's there when you're feeling nostalgic (Glittertind) and when you want to escape to the mountains (Negură Bunget) and when you want to rock really hard (Moonsorrow) and... I can't imagine a day without folk metal 
