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Post by kathakano on Jul 3, 2011 21:47:18 GMT 2
Most pagan music is very 'pro nature'. Regarding nature almost as an entity worthy of respect, but I've always been puzzle on how little respect animals get in these circles, and are objectified as trophies. You just need to go to a pagan concert and you’ll see many displays of the use of animals for attire, food, and wherever you look there’s ton of leather and fur.
This has always intrigued me, how many people claim to ‘respect’ or even ‘worship’ nature and then there's this senseless use of animals, which by all means are worthy of as much respect as nature, because unlike, trees and mountains, they can feel pain, are capable of suffering and have an interest in preserving their own lives.
What are your thoughts on this?
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Post by Arivse on Jul 4, 2011 16:25:34 GMT 2
Hmm, don't know if I'm the right person to answer to your "puzzel" since I'm not pagan, I eat animals as known as meat, I use leather clothes and I fish and used to hunt at my free time. But let see if I'm able to give my own perspective to this matter. From early times when paganism was more popular than any other religion. People were living with and by the nature. They hunted, fished and cathered their food. They made their clothes from animals (leather and wool etc.) They made their jewellery from stones, bones of dead animals and from different metals (silver, copper and sometimes gold). They had their animal Gods, spirits and other religious objects. They respected the wildernes and its animals, since those gave them food and clothes, they didn't kill them just for fun, as known as sport. And now lets compare it to modern society, where people have harvested animals to their own use, as pets, domestic animals etc. Where humans cut down forests, as known as animals homes.. just to get more space/natural resources etc. to us humans. Where most of the people don't care about wilderness, its beauty, its meaning to the world. Where people worship money and power over spirits, Gods and nature. Where most of the kids don't know the difference between wolf and a fox... And these days normal person wouldn't survive in the wilderness because of the lacking respect and knoledge towards wild life and nature itself. In this society animals are just objects to normal people. So as I compare these two different aspects of living, I would say pagans did and still do respect the nature and animals more than, well lets say a normal city people. It doesn't matter if you use fur and leather, when you know where it came, how it was made and when you respect the dead animal which cave you that nice leather jacket and you carry its spirit with you. When you realise that you are carrying someones skin over you, you are able to respect the animal. But when the jacket is just a jacket for you, you don't have the capability to respect animals/nature. I know that was a short post and I only scratched the surfance of pagan belives and way of living, but as I said before, I'm not a pagan and I don't know much from them, but I know modern day people too well... I think we have more knowledge here than just me, I hope someone would fill in my post and correct me if I were wrong in somepoint.
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seana
Clansman
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Post by seana on Jul 4, 2011 17:28:09 GMT 2
Well spoken.
I'm really tired of discussions about such things, I took part in many of them and it always ended up in fight.
I simply can't understand why some people don't realize that eating meat, wearing leather and respecting nature and animals are not mutually exclusive.
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Post by ShamanRunedancer on Jul 5, 2011 19:12:17 GMT 2
Interesting subject.As I don`t have time at the moment (and the next days due to festival-trip) I hope I will find some time to post here later.I read Kathakano`s and Arivse`s posting with much interest and I hope it won`t lead into a fight but a good discussion/conversation.
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Post by Arivse on Jul 5, 2011 19:38:51 GMT 2
I hope it won`t lead into a fight but a good discussion/conversation. My intention wasn't to start a fight, never has been and I hope never will be I may have been too sarcastic when building my post, but I hoped that I made it so that everyone understands it and at the sametime my posts meaning I wanted to satirise my post so that the differences would be easier to spot So that there won't be any missunderstandings in the future I'll try to post my posts meaning without the sarcasms if you so want.
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Post by maris on Jul 6, 2011 15:13:19 GMT 2
Where most of the kids don't know the difference between wolf and a fox Here it's even come to the point that (some) kids from the big city's don't even know how a cow looks like let alone give it the name cow. But I think Arivse is trying to say that even though Pagans these days using animal resources they still respect them. Since it's hard for people willing to live in a more traditional way like they used to in the past; Modern society won't stop and the only way to stay and "compete" against the modern times is that you go with the flow so to speak but without losing your own beliefs and indentity, you just have to find the right balance where you feel comfortable with the mix between your own way and the way the world is today.
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Post by wolferin on Jul 6, 2011 22:52:58 GMT 2
Regarding nature doesn't mean not to use its resourses, but to use it in such a way, that nature can recover. As the pagan groups are concerned, some of their members are sincere pagans, but most of them (and most of their fans) understand paganism like a hedonistic atitude towards life - dressing, eating, drinking, feasting, ....ing in frivolous, "barbarian" way.
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Post by Arivse on Jul 7, 2011 5:28:12 GMT 2
This: Modern society won't stop and the only way to stay and "compete" against the modern times is that you go with the flow so to speak but without losing your own beliefs and indentity, you just have to find the right balance where you feel comfortable with the mix between your own way and the way the world is today. And this: Regarding nature doesn't mean not to use its resourses, but to use it in such a way, that nature can recover. I agree with both of these. As the pagan groups are concerned, some of their members are sincere pagans, but most of them (and most of their fans) understand paganism like a hedonistic atitude towards life - dressing, eating, drinking, feasting, ....ing in frivolous, "barbarian" way. Damn I hate when my english skills aren't enough to express my thoughts, but lets try. I'm not sure if that what Wolferin said is a bad thing, ofcourse "copy cats" aren't the real deal, but when they have adapt few of the main guide lines to their life I think they are "better people" than normal modern day people. (Don't get me wrong, I ment nature wise, nothing more!) But when people start to peel off the creams from everything interesting and mixing those into their own "religion" it can be really bad or really good, depending from the person, but only time will tell how things are going on this matter. The other aspect is, that if those "copy cats" just wants just to be look a likes and don't respect the nature, then its a different matter. Since this topic has got more posters and readers, I would like to ask whats your point of view when it comes to nature and animals. How are you able to "tacking" between modern day needs and with your own belivies? As a kid grown in the country side, I love nature and its animals. I respect them as a part of the world. They belong here as much as we do. Sometimes I even envy some of the animals, since they are able to do things I can't But as I said on my early post, I allso eat meat, use leather clothes and sometimes even fur. Its natural thing for me, its part of the nature. But I don't over use natural resourses. When we used to go hunting with my dad, we didn't go to nature to kill animals, no, we wen't there to enjoy the nature and if we were lucky, we were able to get some food to the table Ofcourse we had coals which animal we were hunting so that it wouldn't be aimless shooting towards all the animals in the forest. And I can say that 80% of the hunting trips were just walks in the forests, since animals are clever, none of them wants to be shot and cooked to meal And since I know few nature and animal lovers from these forums, I'm waiting your posts
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Post by kathakano on Jul 11, 2011 18:44:12 GMT 2
Regarding what Sean posted. My intention was never to challenge and insult people OR come to a 'singing kumbaya by the fire' consensus. The discussion, or the journey, is what interests me (:
Regarding what Wolferin said. I think is very interesting that you mention 'sincerity'. My understanding of the 'old' pagans, or common people from just a few decades ago was that they were much more frugal with their choices. That is, they would take what they’d NEED.
Now, we live in a society that is a bit extreme. People in the first and second world are getting sick and dying of having ‘too much’ food. We have huge rubbish deposits here and there, because we consume too much of everything….
And even when people try to ‘go back’ and adhere to a current like paganism, going back to nature, etc; they keep taking things to the extreme. Do we really NEED to wear a whole fox/wolf/boar/rabbit/cow just to see a concert? Do we really NEED to eat our body weight in animals, just because it's a party?
I just see that maybe those animals, needed and appreciated their own lives, a lot more than we need and appreciate what we get from them.
PS: I hope my English hasn’t failed me and the idea is understood… if not, just ask (:
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Post by Nordis on Jul 27, 2011 11:39:54 GMT 2
Hi kathakano, and welcome to the forum I suppose you mean mainly pagan metal concerts when you speak of "pagan concerts". The thing is that those events aren't really religious events, they are 99% popular culture with maybe a very thin and subtle hint of an ideology or belief laying in the background. Heavy metal culture is extremely masculine, and since barbarianism, war, black leather and shining steel are found to be good ways to express it, they are presented in large quantities. "Pagan" is really wide term itself. Like Wolferin said, being "pagan" means mainly dressing up and partying for many people. Just see how many kids carry Mjölnir around their necks without ever practicing or believing a single aspect of asatru religion. Many more serious groups try to re-enact rituals and ceremonies as perfectly as they can (everybody has to agree that re-enacting the daily life from 2000 years ago would suck if it went on longer than for a week ) while others just live common daily life with a certain view to the world surrounding them. There is no single "pagan" way of life that would give you guidelines what aspects of nature to respect, what you can eat or what resources are ok to use for clothing or for food. I agree with Arivse that using animal-based products is in itself very natural to humans, but I strongly disagree that the means of producing them nowadays would be. The excessive production of animals to satisfy our distorted needs and hedonism has nothing to do with hunting, or "harvesting" the same resources from the wild. ...And why on earth does anybody have to dress like it was year 1045 anyways? That's not religion, that's just dressing up
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Post by lempo on Aug 28, 2012 2:07:30 GMT 2
Ah it's so nice to see people talk and think good things As said before, yeah Paganism is a LARGE umbrella. You can find Hinduism, Wicca, Druidism, Shamanism and many others under Pagan headline. Term "pagan" was used to tell about non-christian people in old Rome. And it means something like "dumb villager". Nowadays people carry it with pride! It's now used to state religions different from christianity, islam and judaism. Shortly, I mean it doesn't mean old barbar people or natural life-style. About the topic, yes we MUST respect other living things. Because they are citizens of earth; not us! Of course we'd take our needs off of them but we HAVE TO switch off our greed mode. And we should give something back for everything that we took. It's not a tough job, simply plant something! Or leave a little bit of your bread to somewhere outside so some animals may eat it. Or something else like that. Because nothing is free and we must pay back. Maybe I'm gonna talk a bit like an over-dreamer but c'mon can't you see the nature's taking her revenge? We must stop this greed. You can eat cabbage instead of extremely tortured and unnatural chickens, you can sit on plastic chairs instead of wood ones, you can have fun without getting eachother wet, or you can walk on the street without snapping a leaf from a tree or you can ride a bike to the grocer's instead of a motorbike, you can wear cotton instead of a brutally killed animal fur... We just have to stop. Nothing more.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2012 18:59:38 GMT 2
Indeed, the term ''pagan'' has suffered many mutations so to say; I see orthodox people here naming so anyone of a different religion, but not in an offending manner....just a term to name someone outside the major religion. In my opinion, the term is a bit over-used nowadays, in the sense it's used with easiness, without being motivated by a clear system of believes...lots to say. Perhaps it's because each has his/her definition of what pagan means. And as past times are many times more alluring in this modern world, no wonder it's appealing to claim a past seen in romantic colours... Not judging anyone, I myself feel that way many days. To achieve harmony is hard, especially now when the balance of things is messed all over world.... Will not be a hypocrite, I don't think I can become ever a vegetarian, but I guess if each of us puts an efforts to hurt as little, to kill as little, to consume with moderation and grow in the garden as many of the stuff we eat... maybe there's hope. Wish I was a prophet and know more...
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Post by lempo on Sept 6, 2012 8:56:51 GMT 2
You're so right. But it looks impossible when there are 7 billion destroyers against us.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2012 10:42:09 GMT 2
You're so right. But it looks impossible when there are 7 billion destroyers against us. There are lots of things which gotten out of control...like the population number going up, while natural resources went down, unable to cover feeding needs. Not mentioning financial interests. Back to the initial line of the topic, I think above on the page, the others have summarised perfectly things.
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Post by Nordis on Sept 13, 2012 14:27:00 GMT 2
You're so right. But it looks impossible when there are 7 billion destroyers against us. There are lots of things which gotten out of control...like the population number going up, while natural resources went down, unable to cover feeding needs. Not mentioning financial interests. Back to the initial line of the topic, I think above on the page, the others have summarised perfectly things. Fun fact: The amount of food produced today would be enough to give each 7 billion people a 2.700 calorie diet each day. That's not happening because of the failed social and economic systems (people can't grow food themselves yet they can't afford to buy it either), the uneven distribution of arable land and because we westerners waste insane amounts of food (when was the last time you ate 100% local food? I can't recall doing that ever). In US half of the edible food goes to waste and Europe isn't doing too much better either. And if we ate the grown plants ourselves instead of feeding them to animals, there simply wouldn't be ANY such issues as sweet water shortage, deforestation or even hunger in the same scale as there is. The irony of meat-eaters preaching about any enviromental subject is just overwhelming, that's like a mass murderer or a warlord woeing about all the violence in the world. The number of people on the planet isn't an issue itself, the problem is that our exceedingly destructive lifestyle is seen as progression and developement which all of us 7 billion are trying to either achieve or uphold. There isn't any "7 billion against us", since no matter how 100% recycled matter your shoes are or how many self-grown tomatoes you eat each summer, you are still using hundreds if not thousands of times more resources than the vast majority of the world population. Try justifying that to yourself and then calling others "destroyers". It's not like things would be great at the moment, but at least we're kind of heading to the right direction. The number of starving and malnutritioned people has gone crashing down in the past few decades, and compared to the situation 100 or 200 years ago we've made some remarkable achievements such as the whole concept of human- and even animal rights. And even the number of ongoing wars and battles is almost nonexistent compared to what it was a few generations ago. Progression doesn't ever happen overnight
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