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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2012 15:49:58 GMT 2
It seems you better informed, and in a good way more preoccupied by these. Thanks for sharing these your thoughts, made me think of some things I haven't before. Yet.... The irony of meat-eaters preaching about any enviromental subject is just overwhelming, that's like a mass murderer or a warlord woeing about all the violence in the world. I don't feel guilty with eating meat. I was born, raised and currently still live in an east-european country where the Iron Curtain may have ''frozen'' in time things a bit. That means people, including my family and everyone else I know grew their vegetables, had their own cattle, chikens, ducks, geese, etc and sacrificied at Christmas a pig for all family (which btw, brought us the name of awful killers. Cute. ). All theirs. Shopping didn't include lots of food, at least in the countryside (which is biggest part of the country anyway). Commie system falling has altered those things a far bit, but not radically: everyone prefers still to eat their own veggies or buy from a neighbour who's having and sells them. Animals are still raised in people's properties and some of them now are sold to abbatoirs (it's from where I buy now my meat, given we in our family -except my aunt who's having lots from all domestic species - don't raise many animals these days either). Western eating habits have invaded here too, will not say we're the innocent angels of Europe, but that happens in less measure than the West has known up until 21 years ago when these big fast food chains came here... Which is why I think the differences of opinion upon this strict matter exists..we've got different backgrounds, cultural identities and of course different customs as well, including in what regards eating. Again, I don't say this people is innocent (or myself) and only others pollute, etc, but I know for a fact this was /is the general situation with the other countries in the area too. Don't think we're worst Europe or world has.... And it's hard with this background to think of these other way than I mentioned above. I don't know how I will feel in a few years time, given in a few months will leave this place.....enroll to western life's way ....but still wanting to have my land, raise my animals, grow my vegetables... Your last paragraph is giving me hope. EDIT: Just realised that we don't throw food, and it was one of the things which shocked me in some measure when going abroad... Even from what we cook , the dog and cats have their share and that never goes to the bin. I also have respect for bread as it's sth holy, cannot conceive to throw any. Actually bread crumbs or dried bread is what we use to make those crumbs for schnitzels... Was talking to a friend not long ago on how we have inherited soemhow the habits of our grandparents who always had to have a stash from everything and never threw anything..but then again, there was hunger, there was food privations which they endure..yet, they hbit stays with us, even if society is a different one.. Sorry if I bored with these, but the topic stayed in my mind all afternoon.
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Post by Nordis on Sept 14, 2012 9:42:49 GMT 2
It seems you better informed, and in a good way more preoccupied by these. Thanks for sharing these your thoughts, made me think of some things I haven't before. Yet.... The irony of meat-eaters preaching about any enviromental subject is just overwhelming, that's like a mass murderer or a warlord woeing about all the violence in the world. I don't feel guilty with eating meat. I was born, raised and currently still live in an east-european country where the Iron Curtain may have ''frozen'' in time things a bit. That means people, including my family and everyone else I know grew their vegetables, had their own cattle, chikens, ducks, geese, etc and sacrificied at Christmas a pig for all family (which btw, brought us the name of awful killers. Cute. ). All theirs. Shopping didn't include lots of food, at least in the countryside (which is biggest part of the country anyway). Commie system falling has altered those things a far bit, but not radically: everyone prefers still to eat their own veggies or buy from a neighbour who's having and sells them. Animals are still raised in people's properties and some of them now are sold to abbatoirs (it's from where I buy now my meat, given we in our family -except my aunt who's having lots from all domestic species - don't raise many animals these days either). Western eating habits have invaded here too, will not say we're the innocent angels of Europe, but that happens in less measure than the West has known up until 21 years ago when these big fast food chains came here... Which is why I think the differences of opinion upon this strict matter exists..we've got different backgrounds, cultural identities and of course different customs as well, including in what regards eating. Again, I don't say this people is innocent (or myself) and only others pollute, etc, but I know for a fact this was /is the general situation with the other countries in the area too. Don't think we're worst Europe or world has.... And it's hard with this background to think of these other way than I mentioned above. I don't know how I will feel in a few years time, given in a few months will leave this place.....enroll to western life's way ....but still wanting to have my land, raise my animals, grow my vegetables... Your last paragraph is giving me hope. EDIT: Just realised that we don't throw food, and it was one of the things which shocked me in some measure when going abroad... Even from what we cook , the dog and cats have their share and that never goes to the bin. I also have respect for bread as it's sth holy, cannot conceive to throw any. Actually bread crumbs or dried bread is what we use to make those crumbs for schnitzels... Was talking to a friend not long ago on how we have inherited soemhow the habits of our grandparents who always had to have a stash from everything and never threw anything..but then again, there was hunger, there was food privations which they endure..yet, they hbit stays with us, even if society is a different one.. Sorry if I bored with these, but the topic stayed in my mind all afternoon. I admit that all meat isn't bad ecologically, I just didn't bother to edit my text for Nth time anymore Game and wild fish, if fished locally and only for the current need, are in fact way more ecolgical than any exported vegetables or grains. The trouble begins when the people who live in cities and thus can't grow cattle or any other food are subject to the food industry which is out there only to make profit. The beef sold here is often from South America or Africa, local cattle and pork are fed with endless amount of soy protein shipped from far east, even the frozen fish and shrimp from North Sea are first shipped to Southeast Asia to be boned and prepared and then shipped back to be sold in here. All this just because it's more profitable with the (underpaid) cheap labour and almost non-existent environmental regulations. And that's the situation with food in most of the world's cities. Most meals have travelled and seen the world way more than than their eaters ever will. Having an odd steak or grill ribs every now and then might not seem like a big issue on personal level, but to put things in perspective one can imagine the sheer amount of animals we eat daily and the amount of farm land hey need to be fed. For a record, an average large indian butchery can provide 100 metric tons of cut beef a day ( bit.ly/Ou4bBE ). That's quite a few cows, fed with food from a farmland farmed by malnutritioned farmers who can't afford to buy the final product themselves.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2012 13:13:42 GMT 2
Of course you have to admit some things, just like I did (and do too after reading your new post). Otherwise we'd give way to polemics, which is the most unhealthy way of debate, without constructive input. I would like to think this is a discussion in which things are problematized in order to reach some truth with the topic here. Nobody asked repetitive infos or reiterations of previous statements. I'm thankful I found some new things from you which I must consider from now on.
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Post by wolferin on Sept 16, 2012 21:18:35 GMT 2
It's good there are many people still leaving in the rural regions in Romania. Here we have fertile land, but the villages get more and more depopulated. People go in the cities to look for work and remain there. For example in my family the grandparents lived in the country, but my parents and most my relatives from that generation moved in cities and towns. It is let say since 1950 the urbanization began to grow more and more and now is strongly prevailing. So I'm born and always lived in the capital, never grow anything, except plants in pots. All the food for me "grows" in the supermarket, with some exceptions like presents for holidays. I don't know how to grow anything and I can't slay nothing, except cockroach or mosquito. ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2012 23:14:30 GMT 2
Many still live, lots of others do leave, as the neverending exodus from rural to urban human settlements never changed reasons since the Industrial Revolution. I trust villages will never be totally deserted, neither here or in your country where I saw people in villages as well. And those who stay do it with keeping most traditions. That's OK, can always teach you to slay a thing or two. ;D All in all I think we're just a bunch of good people (ja, even I ) who at least worry and bring into discussion all this, and some succeed in maintaining some balance or try to.....but I repeat myself now.
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Post by wolferin on Sept 17, 2012 18:07:00 GMT 2
That's OK, can always teach you to slay a thing or two. ;D Really, with an axe or knife, 'cause with a fire-gun I theoretically can. I thing there'll be a bloody drama with some cut fingers, an ambulance, and a lot of hungry people waiting for the chicken soup, which will be walking alive and healthy in the yard. ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2012 18:14:09 GMT 2
..add a scalpel too, I think I preserved my skills from vet uni still. ;D Neah, I propose we have a good meal instead with veggies from my garden, at your place...be happy like two years ago.
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Post by wolferin on Sept 17, 2012 20:57:45 GMT 2
Somehow I prefer to make the stitches myself, than awake your sleeping skills, hahahahaha. If you insist to cut, may start with the garden veggies for salad. And when I finish the embroidery, we can destroy some home made wine, or something stronger for disinfection.
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seana
Clansman
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Post by seana on Sept 18, 2012 7:35:22 GMT 2
@ nordis
I totally agree with most of what you wrote, but to be honest I don't like to be compared with a bass murder still just because I eat meat. Don't get the point why this should deny me the right to be against cruelty to animals or environmental pollution.
Can't write more at the moment for I have to go to work now, but I will be back afterwards.
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Post by Nordis on Sept 18, 2012 8:26:30 GMT 2
@ nordis I totally agree with most of what you wrote, but to be honest I don't like to be compared with a bass murder still just because I eat meat. Don't get the point why this should deny me the right to be against cruelty to animals or environmental pollution. Can't write more at the moment for I have to go to work now, but I will be back afterwards. I didn't compare anyone to anything, I just used an analogy that I thought would be easy to understand and that just popped into my mind. I'm sure you understood what I meant But enough with the metaphors, let's just put it as it is: What good does a respect towards animal rights and nature do if one willingly contributes to their degeneration and destruction? I simply couldn't answer to this myself, so I found out that the only right solution was to be honest with myself and to practice what I preached.
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seana
Clansman
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Post by seana on Sept 18, 2012 15:46:05 GMT 2
I understand what you mean, and I'm sure you didn't want to, but it's how it feels for me when I read such things. And analogies like that often make objective discussons with vegetarians impossible for me, because sooner or later it always comes up to the "good guy/bad guy" issue. For me the main problem is not eating meat itself, it's that we eat too much of it and most people don't care where it comes from as long as it's cheap. Also I think it's nearly impossible to live in a "civilized western country" without using way more resources than most people. Guess I do that only by going to work by car every day But we can at least try not to waste resources sensless and avoid pollution as much as possible.
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Sveitsin susi
Eagle
Great Mother open my heart and let me sing
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Post by Sveitsin susi on Sept 18, 2012 18:02:45 GMT 2
I always say, no matter what you're doing, do it with love, respect and attention. So it may not be wrong.
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Post by Nordis on Sept 18, 2012 18:37:50 GMT 2
For me the main problem is not eating meat itself, it's that we eat too much of it and most people don't care where it comes from as long as it's cheap. I tried to eat meat ethically and ecologically for quite a while, but in the end it was so much hassle that I just didn't bother. I could pick an organic finnish pork chop from the store but there was no way of knowing if the pig had born and slaughered here, born in Germany and then shipped here to grow and be slaughtered or grown in here and slaughtered in Estonia. And it was still easy for clean cut or minced meat, with sausages or anything else processed there was no way of knowing where the meat was from and how it was produced. Turns out finnish Subway ships chicken for their sandwiches all the way from Indonesia and "meat" even in 100% finnish processed products is often nothing but skin and entrails soaked in spices. The remnants of antibiotics and other medicine, as well as nitrite and other harmful additives in meat were something I just didn't want to eat at all. Also I think it's nearly impossible to live in a "civilized western country" without using way more resources than most people. Guess I do that only by going to work by car every day But we can at least try not to waste resources sensless and avoid pollution as much as possible. Sadly, meat production is nothing but senseless waste of resources and the worst polluter there is. The whole world population could change their cars to hybrids, lightbulbs to LEDs and keep a lid on the pan when boiling potatoes but it still wouldn't help even nearly as much as replacing meat on even every second meal. The "green" and "ecological" solutions so far are nothing but a way to buy ourselves a cleaner conscience and even on their best they're just nitpicking in the face of the real problem. I read (I still have to double check this) that if red meat usage dropped just 10% there would be enough free farmland to end the world hunger. Not sure how that percentage is counted though, since there already is way enough food being produced.
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Post by maris on Sept 18, 2012 18:58:38 GMT 2
@ nordis I totally agree with most of what you wrote, but to be honest I don't like to be compared with a bass murder still just because I eat meat. Don't get the point why this should deny me the right to be against cruelty to animals or environmental pollution. Can't write more at the moment for I have to go to work now, but I will be back afterwards. I didn't compare anyone to anything, I just used an analogy that I thought would be easy to understand and that just popped into my mind. I'm sure you understood what I meant But enough with the metaphors, let's just put it as it is: What good does a respect towards animal rights and nature do if one willingly contributes to their degeneration and destruction? I simply couldn't answer to this myself, so I found out that the only right solution was to be honest with myself and to practice what I preached. Me myself hardy eating any meat because I don't like meat(taste) am one to say to people to eat what they please but I do have a belief that meat eating and respect for animal(rights) can go hand in hand; You just have to make a little effort in searching and buying animal friendly products like free-range meat, those animals have a good life before they end up in the store. I also knew a girl from a wolfpark internship that didn't even want to set foot in park's abattoir just because of the fact she's a vegetarian and her friend did enter but didn't want to process the meat because she's vegi. Only thing I think at moments like that they choose wrong company to get learning experience as if they think they'd get to cuddle with the wolfcubs all day long. In the end the whole don't eat meat/eat meat discussion falls on how one's point of view on the matter is. But my personal experiences are that self proclaimed non-meat eaters who do it just because they pity the animals(being killed) and a lot of vegans have more extreme views(verge of almost naive thinking) on using natural elements for consumption and usage then average Joe the meat eater
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2012 19:43:10 GMT 2
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