|
Post by Sethlad on Sept 10, 2004 13:55:37 GMT 2
No matter what the initial subject of the thread we always wander off-topic and start debating about other stuff, very interesting stuff of course, but still off-topic.
So, I think a thread of this calibre is a good thing... if we feel about discussing stuff, we can just pursue it here instead of poluting the other threads. If you think this is pointless, just lock it away... I won't mind. heheheh
To start off the "hostilities", how fucked up was that situation in Beslan, North Ossétia.
For me it's just one of those cases where you just can' find good guys and bad guys --> they're all a bunch of murdering bastards, Terrorists and russian law-enforcement agencies alike.
It's true that the terrorist set this thing off, and they caused the police attack when they started shooting children that were trying to escape... I'm generally against the death penalty, but for these people... I'd make a exception.
Still, the russian police/army is starting to make a precedent of turning every terrorist hostage situation into a blodd-filled massacre. Just remember the theatre incident a few years back. And then they come to television and admit "the forces were badly prepared because they are not in moscow and it's a very far away part of russia". BULLSHIT! In a country with so many problems and divergencies ALL law-enforcement should be prepared for things like this... and if not, why wasn't a specialist moscovite team sent to the place. And what the hell were all those bystanders doing right in the middle of the action, including de courageos/crazy/oportunistic blood-sucker journalist of skynews.
It was really upsetting to see all that... and terrorist might just think it actually pays to do these big hostage things, because all the media coverage and the fact that it is actually the russian government who gets all the bad rep.
Done... wrote a lot, my only confort is to know that Dave will probably outwrite me in length. heheheh
|
|
|
Post by DaveTheRake on Sept 10, 2004 15:17:46 GMT 2
Done... wrote a lot, my only confort is to know that Dave will probably outwrite me in length. heheheh Well, in fact you haven't let me chance ! ;D I totally agree with you but in the death penalty; in my opinion when a person is condemned to death by the state, the state turns to be as murderer as the people executed, no matter the crime he/she has comitted; I know that if a relative of one of the children massacred in Osetia hears me, he/she would be glad of tearing my eyes off my face and step over them; but I think that killing a killer won't give the killed back into life. I think it is always better to lock this killer in a jail and let him see the light of the sun just through the bars of the cell. I'm totally against this penitenciary wellfare state in which the imprisioned live; if somebody has comitted a crime he has to pay for it; I'm not saying that people in prison should be treated as in the Chinesse jails or as in Guantanamo, but definitely they must not have so much commodities as they have, at least as in Spanish jails where prisioners can have a playstation But back into the Osetia affaire,w ell, as Andre has said, here it's not a matter of who is good or who is bad; it's a monstruosity to kidnap a lot of children and their relatives, but is it less monstuous what the Russian army is doing at Chechenia? We must remember that these people wants not to be a part of Russia, and just for that the army is massacrating them... is it a democratic state? What about the referendum in which no international steward was present and in which the people of Chechenia voted they wanted to be Russians? Does nobody see that these referendum stinks like shit? We have in Spain a word for that, "Pucherazo" which is when the result of an ellection has been modified by one of the participants, just what George Bush did on 2000 ellections. So, back again to Chechenia, we've got a republic which was to be independent, and a supranation which doesn't let the republic to take the choice. Of course this republic needs something to fight against tiranny, but the problem is that they have taken the most easy way, which is terrorism. I know what terrorism mean, we here in Spain have ETA, and if you remember, some months ago we knew how pleasurable was islamic terrorism thanks to our last president, Jose Maria Charlotte. I can promise you that nobody has the right to kill another people even if he is fucking right in his position. But once again, neither has another one the right to limit his choice of freedom. Well, hope I have explained myself right; this is the typical issue in which is very easy to missunderstand anything. Have I written more than Sethlad?
|
|
|
Post by Southern Troll on Sept 10, 2004 15:37:36 GMT 2
Well if chechenia doesn't have some oil... I think that this terrorist are suckers! But death penalty isn't a good way for this idiots! Because they are suicides! So kill them will not work! For me the best way is torture! It's work in Brasil! We had a lots of terrorist groups during the Dictatorial government ages! And the militaries solve the problem with torture and fear! I think that fear is the way! They have to attack their fears! Or as we say in Brasil "put a finger in their wound" but without chance of retaliation! Unique and massive attack! Without mercy! That's part of my opinion!
|
|
|
Post by DaveTheRake on Sept 10, 2004 16:17:14 GMT 2
Buff, I almost preffer not to read the other part of your opinion Well, sorry but I don't agree with all these torture stuff... it's just that I don't believe that a democratic state must be a repressory one. Of course something must be done to punish these crazy people, but torture and fear... we would be opening the door to the ghost from the past! In Spain police has been torturing people openly even in the eighties (just I wanna whish they still don't) and when Franco's dictature it was the usual, police just take you away 'cos you was student... and all this repression and torture didn't ended with the problem but increased it. We must remember that what the USA is doing today with Bin Laden, Hussein and all those bastards is creating the remembered marthyrs of the past! So in my opinion we should take care with repressino and torture. I still think that the worst punishment for a human being is taking away his/her freedom. But it's nice to have this kind of conversations
|
|
|
Post by Southern Troll on Sept 10, 2004 16:39:03 GMT 2
Have one limit for this! I don't say that you catch everyone in streets and f*** them! But that this terrorist have to suffer a lot!
Cause the other ways will not work! Try to talk with this idiots! They never hear what you have to say!
They are like 5 years old child! "MOM I WANT I WANT AND I WANT!!!!"
Of course that i don't want police kill a lot of students! But if this student is a terrorist then my opinion is diferent!
With good inteligence and investigation we can do that!
|
|
TomS
Clansman
Keeping "The Spirit" alive
Posts: 361
|
Post by TomS on Sept 10, 2004 23:44:15 GMT 2
Well, this in in my eyes a very good topic, and deserves the sticky option. Therefore.. sticky Debate ahead!
|
|
|
Post by twilightheart on Sept 10, 2004 23:52:48 GMT 2
.. if we feel about discussing stuff, we can just pursue it here instead of poluting the other threads. If you think this is pointless, just lock it away... No, this thread is a good idea... TX for starting it... now we can shoot all our nonsense here... About terrorism... I understand that countries want their independence, I understand why Tschedschenia (? ... dunno in english) wants to be free from Russia (although I think, it would be their economic end... they can´t excist without Russia), I agree Ireland wanting to be free from England etc. .... BUT that`s a matter of POLITICS, not of innocent people... those radicals should deal with the gouvernment of the countries, not pestering us normal little people, who just do their work everyday... That`s why it`s a SHAME, if (like in Russia) terrorists kidnap CHILDREN for their believes! Children have NOTHING to do with politics... and it`s the most shameful thing they could ever do to kill those children! Shame on them forever! With that action they probably lost their last followers... and that`s only right.
|
|
TomS
Clansman
Keeping "The Spirit" alive
Posts: 361
|
Post by TomS on Sept 11, 2004 0:01:42 GMT 2
That`s why it`s a SHAME, if (like in Russia) terrorists kidnap CHILDREN for their believes! Children have NOTHING to do with politics... and it`s the most shameful thing they could ever do to kill those children! Shame on them forever! With that action they probably lost their last followers... and that`s only right. Absolutly agree. That event was another black mark in our history, and one that shan't be erased. And what did it prove, or what did it help.. nothing, absolutly nothing... Grieve and sorrow for the children and their loved ones. It makes me sick.
|
|
|
Post by Sethlad on Sept 11, 2004 3:02:38 GMT 2
Glad the thread picked up some action... dave: I think you misunderstood me when it comes to death penalty, in fact, I absolutely agree with you. I think it's much more punishing to let them rot in jail for their whole lives watching the sun go up and down every day of their lives through barred windows. I was just saying that, after seing that on tv, and with a hot head, if I was face to face with one of those terrorist fucks I would probably feel very inclined to shoot the bastard in the head... probably would feel the same towards the subtle russian police and army. There are independentist movements almost everywhere in the world, and terror is their way of getting on the media... that's it. THEY KNOW, they won't get anywhere by doing this crap cause no government will let itself be bullied. The thing is, when they do this shit, they get on tv and draw attention to their cause, and even if the whole world hates their guts, they also get to know their cause and their purpose... they might even get some attention and support from warlords with weapons and such. And when things go wrong, like in beslan, they also give the local government bad reputation... and that's a very good thing for them. There must be a way to deal with these people, sincerely I can't figure it out... but it certainly isn't the russian or american way of doing shit. Certainly not the spanish government's way of closing all buildings of Erri Batasuna. What good did that do?... even this summer ETA blew up a bomb in Galicia... Galicia for fucks sake! why?!?!? (it also isn't the torture way of things Silvio I think... that would make us as bad as they are...) In Ireland things are getting somewhere, because they insisted and insisted on talking... dunno if it will ever be solved, but these religious divergencies (even more than the cultural ones like in Euskaudi) just seem so goddamned pointless one feels disarmed. What to do? One thing is certain BLOWING SHIT UP is not the way... that's something the terrorist are better at doing than the law-enforcement agencies. I say, throw them all in a gigantic unbreakable dome with an infinite amount of free weapons and let the fuckers kill each other at will without pestering the rest of the planet!
|
|
|
Post by DaveTheRake on Sept 16, 2004 13:25:13 GMT 2
Good, back again into this topic. Well, of course here none of us is (sadly) owning truth, but in my opinion everyone of us is right in more or less extent. I think Twi is fucking right in that all this is a metter of polithics, so it must be they who should suffer consequences. It's a feelling that we had in Spain (specially we people from Madrid) after the 11-m bombs in the trains. Both me and Leitisdal were lucky that day; I had an strike so I had not to come to the library (I usually take my second train in Atocha around 7.20 in the same platform where the first train exploded) and Raul came to work late so when the bombs exploded he was still at home; but if we wouldn't have been so lucky what was our blame on the Irak war or terrorism war? 192 innocent people died that day, and they was not guilty of killing Irak people. The guilties (Bush-Blair-Aznar and everybody who helped on the invasion of Irak) was safe in their palaces. Why they didn't try to kill Aznar instead all that people? I also agree with you Sethlad in that feelling of impotency which would drive everyone of us to kill the first terrorist we had on our face. I felt that, and everyone of us would. It's just the impotency we feel when we see how normal people who just try to make his path in life is killed. I would kill those bastards, but just me as an anonimous indvidual. Goverments must try to make the laws be attended. And since you've mentioned other cases of terrorism, I'm going to talk a bit about the one that I know, ETA. I totally agreed with Spanish last goverment when they closed all the Herri Batasuna buildings and associations... it was not a matter of bollocks, it was just that proved as ti was that Herri Batasuna was ETA's polithic arm, it was nonsensical that Spanish money went to the same people that made explode bombs in Spain and killed Spanish people just because they don't want to be Spanish. It's not that I'm a patriotic, in fact I don't feel Spanish, I just feel madrileño ´cos I was born in Madrid, but feel Spain is a more ethereal idea. But neither do I find reasonable, as I've said, that part of the money I pay as taxes go to some people who could kill me thanks to that money. I don't say neither that things in Spain are well driven; my opinion is that goverment and ETA should negociate; this situation has no sense at all. For example, the bombs in the Cantabric coast... what they wanted with them? just call international atention, just say "hey, we're still here", and they went to that zone 'cos the mediterranean coast was extremely observed. But I also understand that no dialogue can be possible if there's not a compromise that they're not going to kill anybody else. And about cultural background, in Pais Vasco things are not as much different from the rest of Spain; I mean, if we take out the stone-lifters, the pelotaris and the people who cut trees in that basque-way, the rest is as different as any other particular zone from another one; I mean, catalanes dance sardana, gallegos dance muñeiras, madrilaños dance chotis and vascos dance aurrescu. The glasses of wine the vascos call chiquito are chupito in Madrid. So there is not a special cultural difference. That about the ETA problem; anyway I've got to say that ETA was good when we had here Franco but since we have a democracy, they're out of place. Well, I've talked too much, already. Maybe I've centred too much on ETA problem, but in a certain way, all those problems derived from terrorist have the same root. And there's not a good terrorism and a bad one if innocent people is killed.
|
|
Fjola
Eagle
AKA the blonde airhead :)
Posts: 80
|
Post by Fjola on Sept 18, 2004 17:37:35 GMT 2
But that this terrorist have to suffer a lot! Cause the other ways will not work! Try to talk with this idiots! They never hear what you have to say!
|
|
|
Post by Talyla on Sept 19, 2004 1:01:14 GMT 2
oh that is such a hard topic. I think Fjyla is right most. Today we really can't do anythink with this fact. That's just awful. Innosent people, children, we all are made to live in fear. Just because some one wanted to have power and money. This people are paying by their blood for the politican's and tyrant's ambitions. I'm just asked myself for what i'm living in this worl as it is sold and bought already. Where life on hundrets is the price of a nwe law to make the power stronger. So i didn't see any proper to find out what to do with terrorists till we didn't find that who pays tham! DaveTheRake You are right in many points! it is true i do not believe that there is a real democracy ever on the planet/ Though do you know that there is not so much oil in Chechnya? And this state was part of russia since very ancient times, how is about if in the center of the country will be another one? And no one could say what it will be if Chechnya becomes independent what will built islanm terrorists on it place. Will people would like to live by shariate laws in free country? That is very scarring what is happening in the world as it is cold war again, but now no one is safe. Hehe now i've got a feeling of apocalypsys ! Have to hear some music
|
|
|
Post by Southern Troll on Sept 19, 2004 6:19:20 GMT 2
But one of the problems is! At World War I the english goes to Bagda (I don't know how to write this in english ) and did the same thing! The Americans learned very well! We fucked the disciples of Allah since XI century! We fucked in the name of god, for politics! Now they fucking us in the name of god for Politics! The history is a circle! The problem is... The weapons are strongest! But when i talked about torture, i just told one thing that worked in Brasil! We had a lot's of terrorists here at 60's and 70's! But the Military Government exiled the politicians and put the guys with weapons above the ground! Sometimes they fucked the politicians! But the most curious thing! The military government is over! And now we have problems with Traffic! Because our laws is very light!
|
|
Fjola
Eagle
AKA the blonde airhead :)
Posts: 80
|
Post by Fjola on Sept 19, 2004 9:13:43 GMT 2
We fucked in the name of god, for politics! Now they fucking us in the name of god for Politics! That's part of the reason why I'm an atheist.
|
|
|
Post by Southern Troll on Sept 19, 2004 15:44:19 GMT 2
Yeah me too! ;D
|
|