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Post by wolferin on May 25, 2009 22:36:35 GMT 2
Let's write about love and friendship. Do you believe in love? Can there be friendship between people of different sex? Would you do it just for the sex? And all of this kind.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2009 23:29:28 GMT 2
By bringing the two essences that perfumes Life into discussion, you'll put us at writing a lot, Wolferin,for which l thank thee. The types shalt be unleashed here as this new path of discussion awaits Klaanish people to march! We shall..
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Post by Heer E. Tik on May 26, 2009 2:27:19 GMT 2
I've heard a saying once that 'love is friendship caught on fire'. There is an aspect in this with which I agree, namely: that love is a deeper degree of friendship, and without friendship as the foundation love has no chance. The aspect in this saying with which I disagree is the fire comparison. People often confuse love with passion, and use one word as interchangeable with the other. While there is a certain aspect of both contained in each, to varied degrees that depend on the persons involved and the situation, yet each of those words is distinct and should not be interchanged. Love is a word far more encompassing and multi-faceted than mere passion. Love is also dedication, as well as an ability to open one's self and expand and encompass/contain another being for whom you experience this. This ability to contain is what differentiates love from passion, and what lifts it above the cliched Hollywood/Harlequin romance definition of love (which is simply romanticized lust, yet another concept that has its own notions). Passion is something that directs oneself towards the other, it's what draws one to the object of one's passion. Its outward direction of one's self upon the other - and the same reciprocated act of the other towards one's self - forms the attraction. I see it like a magnetized meetingpoint of two people's Wills and selves. Passion is also desire, and other synonyms can be ardor, rapture, fervor, and more - all firelike words that suggest inflammation and being overwhelmed by a powerful feeling towards someone. The key is "towards"... Being overcome by such feeling too powerful to coolly control, there is an impulse to surrender to it, the want and the urge to be drawn towards the other. It can be a healthy feeling and certainly it's what has kept the human race in action for millenia (lol), but of course like all other feelings and attributes, it can also become negative and damaging when it grows out of control and not kept in check by other qualities. Too much of this ardent fire, if the regard for the well being for the other person is not kept in mind, may well lead to parasitic energy vampirism. It's the imposition of one's self upon the other, it's the "I NEED" more than it is "I LOVE." So what makes love "love"? This question has occupied the minds of poets and philosophers for millenia, and if the answer was easily found it would not have become such a timeless concept. But in regard for my thoughts that I've written out above, I shall continue with my train of thought. Love is multifaceted and complex, with so many sides to it that each person can see in it something that can only apply to oneself, based on one's experience. Of course there are no objective answers or definitions to such deep concepts... But in the dichotomy of love vs passion, love to me means the ability to contain the other within, so to speak - thus it is inwards-directed as opposed to passion that is more outwards-directed. It is allowing the other person's self to enter within, so to speak. So that the other person becomes almost an extension of one's self - not in a needy/clingy manner, but in the way of empathy. Love is a broad enough word to apply not only to lovers but also to parents/children and sister/brother relationships and to friendships that are not romantic in nature. So I think that if we were to look for a definition of love, it would have to be a definition that would encompass in itself all those different aspects and expressions of love. I feel that what I wrote above about love fits my definition of it. Can there be friendship between people of different sexes - easily. There can even be close friendship that is not rooted in romantic passion. Love does not have to be only romantic in nature: it's a mistake to equate the two unequivocally without a deeper consideration... Of course love is a concept broad enough to contain the romantic element, but it's not restricted to it. There have been friends in my life of opposite sex whom I regard(ed) as dear brothers, and on whom I would not raise a hand (in *that* sense lol). Come to think of it, the feeling is not easily described. It's as if those kind of bonds are more soulful and all-encompassing, and turning it into a romantic kind of relationship would limit it and pigeon-hole it and tarnish it. This reaction to the thought is in line with the brother/sister metaphor that is very apt in describing this particular kind of friendship. It's very personality-based, I think, too... There's people of opposite sex among my friends towards whom I feel like a devoted/affectionate/responsible older sibling no matter how old they actually may be, lol. (but let's leave personality types and psychology for another separate discussion...)
Of course, for the sake of argument, you may assert in response to my talk that there is after all such a thing in the world as incest, so no relationship may be sex-proof in the end (remember Sigurd and Sieglinde?), but Freudian psychoanalysis aka "i see dicks everywhere" mentality is too overused these days at the expense of other approaches and perspectives that are being overlooked and underconsidered. It was Freud too by the way who had enough sense to know where to draw the line and say, "sometimes a pipe is just a pipe."
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Post by Bartbär on May 26, 2009 3:44:49 GMT 2
That is an absolutely brilliant interpretation, Hjalagh, and I must say it is practically identical to my own. Passion is a stepping stone to love, most love develops from passion, whether it be the passion of interest in that other person, or the likeness of passions in the individuals that draws them towards one another. Yet passion is CERTAINLY not the be-all and end-all of love, it is but a molecule in the atom of love. If passion is one molecule, then what is the Monad? That will always produce various answers, and there is no ultimate evaluation. Love and beauty truly are in the eye of the beholder, it can have only a small extent of objective qualities. Love exists on countless levels, we have it in relationships of all sorts, friendships, blood relations, even to the extent of love in objects (although a one-sided love considering these objects can not connect whole-heartedly) and with ideas. To answer Wolferin's question. Do I believe in Love, why certainly. I just think that we are so overburdened with false concepts of Love that we believe in everything that it is not. Hollywood plays on that constantly, the whole "love at first site" concept (which I can delve into later), not to say that it is complete bullshit, but the whole overly passionate and constant use of the "they do everything perfect" type crap. I have witnessed this in the few relationships I have been in. Every girl I was with got so confused if I did not constantly sweep them off their feet everyday. It is like this everywhere, we are trained through the movies we see and the books we read that love is something that just magically happens, there doesn't need to be anything prior to it, there just needs to be passion and spark. Eventually we believe so hard in that "one true love" that we forget Love needs to be worked up to. Sure, I believe in the idea of love at first sight, but only to an extent based around empathy. We have some indescribable connection to certain individuals right when we meet them that we cannot always put our finger on. That is our empathy talking, a sort of deeper more meaningful connection already established on one plain of existence or another. But that does not mean it is true love, nor that it is love at all. Many times it is just a burning lust of attraction. In regards to sex, I have grown more open towards its limits over the years, due to many many hours of thinking about it and trying to delve deeper into it (no pun intended, haha). I used to put sex on the level of a more reserved nature, but then I thought about nature and realized it needs not be always so sacred. Sex keeps the species alive, and is also very healthy for every part of our lives. It is a strong connection that you share with someone that draws many forces together, and it is very euphoric. As it would need to be. If sex was not pleasurable, we would have died out a lonnnnnggggg time ago. Although, sex with love is always better, but again depending on the type of Love. Love of a friend and a deep connection, well, that is not sexual, and thus any sexual interaction with that would truly dampen the already established roots. Sexual love though, must of course be accompanied with sex, and the greater the love, so too the greater the outcome of everything else. I can continue on this for hours, and need to if I am to draw any true connectin between these few short thoughts, but I must now go. Great discussion topic Wolferin.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2009 10:00:37 GMT 2
Interesting points of view. Complex topic though and i'd start first with the phenomenon called friendship, although tis not far from love. Friends and fellowship are vital for me, for l kant generalise nor preach,so a personal approach is what l'll show here. I am among those who have a strong and radical opinion that supports the idea of respect and total support for friends. Countless times me and my friends did that and l am so happy to have them and for the way l am and act to. To be continued., ;D
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Post by wolferin on May 26, 2009 20:56:00 GMT 2
Great discussion topic Wolferin. Thank you! You all wrote so many things and everything so well said, that I don't know what to add. May be one my opinion, that making sex can spoil a friendship between a man and a woman and after that everything looks different.
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Kirki
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Post by Kirki on May 26, 2009 21:17:18 GMT 2
Can there be friendship between people of different sex? Absolutely. One of my best friends is a female. So close are we that she once gladly stayed up until 4am providing me with comfort lol. I would do the same for her. I have helped her with problems in the past, and my current task is helping her with her exams haha
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Crystiannia
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Post by Crystiannia on May 27, 2009 2:02:55 GMT 2
I think love and friendship can be blind to gender and in most cases should be. I am biased though. I have always and only have had male close friends, perhaps two close sisters in my lifetime. But then my interests have always been more masculine. While other girls played princesses waiting for their knight in shining armor, I wanted to be the Valkyrie on the battlefield! You know, sexy but kick ass! I believe so much has to do with lifestyle though. You're going to bond with those you share the most with. And it's natural that close bonds can awaken other desires. Though with all my male counterparts there is only one that created that spark for me and, alas, we never took that path. He was this gorgeous blue-eyed bearded Norseman when met and despite the now-obvious flirtations, neither of us could see how the other felt until it was too late. In that case, perhaps friendship got in the way? We were too close to see clearly. (But he shaved, got a haircut, and now lives on the beach... it's a tragic tale! LOL)
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2009 7:52:33 GMT 2
@christiania: that remembered the game l made up when being child: Michael the Brave (a historic character) against the turks! ;D I played it a lot fighting with swords and my mates loved it. My fave game was darts, no doll playing around...no wonder they've called me Walkyrie. ;D Friendship part 2: it kant be sexed indeed. I have lots male friends and sometimes l have more fun with them.... As with the women l have as friends and who are all pretty special I'd say... Human empathy, the natural understanding without words, the gestures we do and the support we give.... Tis so fantasmik! open minded, highly humoured whorde we have! And the laughs...one day a few of us woke up having 30 and have no idea what that means
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Kirki
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Post by Kirki on May 27, 2009 11:28:28 GMT 2
@ crystiannia: Oh dear, that sounds familiar. That happened to me last year with a really lovely girl. She was helpful, charming, extremely friendly and caring and she is beautiful as well. When I realised she liked me, I was over the moon. Then I decided to try and get the eprfect situation to ask her out, she was unsure how I felt for her and so never agreed to any of my ideas...and then it was just too late! I really wish we could be close again like we once were : (
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Post by Bartbär on May 27, 2009 21:13:20 GMT 2
I'm sure almost everyone has dealt with such a situation. It is odd, it seems like I always know openly the girls who like me, of whom I usually have only a little interest. But when it comes to those who I have had feelings for, I can never tell. Even if I can tell, I never do anything about it, and many times I have felt it is already too late. But oh well, such is life!
It is quite sad though, but "all is it not lost, and never to be forgotten."
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Kirki
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Post by Kirki on May 28, 2009 1:31:23 GMT 2
I just really wish we could just be close friends again though lol. We're not on bad terms now though...just drifted apart.
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Post by Heer E. Tik on May 28, 2009 4:44:10 GMT 2
The last several posts here, about having feelings for someone who's right there and realizing it when it's already too late (weird isn't it that this scenario only seems to happen in cases where one's feelings are truly deep and heartfelt), reminded me of Heinrich Heine's poem from "Die Heimkehr" section of his "Buch der Lieder":
Sie liebten sich beide, doch keiner Wollt es dem andern gestehn; Sie sahen sich an so feindlich, Und wollten vor Liebe vergehn. Sie trennten sich endlich und sahn sich Nur noch zuweilen im Traum; Sie waren längst gestorben, Und wußten es selber kaum.
(I couldn't find the one good translation for this poem that I've seen once, but here's another translation that I could find online, with my modifications) -
They loved each other, but neither Would admit to the other they could: So hostile they saw one another, Yet almost expired of their love.
In the end they parted, and only Saw each other sometimes in dreams: It was long ago that they died, But they scarcely knew it, it seems.
I've been in a similar situation myself, and would never live it down, heh. The lesson dearly learned: just say it, say it, say it!
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Post by Bartbär on May 28, 2009 5:30:00 GMT 2
Heinrich Heine, one of the countless great German poets who will be read over and over by myself and the millions of others who connect on these topics.
What an absolutely beautiful poem. It looks like most of us have been in such situations then, some going through with it, some having it already gone by, etc. Just goes to show that mistakes are commonly shared on a worldly level.
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Crystiannia
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"Here is the deepest secret nobody knows..."
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Post by Crystiannia on May 28, 2009 6:19:31 GMT 2
Hjalagh, THANK YOU for posting that! It is quite perfect. We can have friendships without feeling a hint of romantic love, but I'd dare say it's impossible to have romantic love without friendship? Shouldn't your hearts desire also be your best friend? Lust, now that is another animal altogether! You can have sex without being in love with the person, but in that case is it really that satisfying? Fun, yes. But otherwise isn't there an emptiness after? I'm terribly romantic in that sense. I need to know that I hold someone's heart or it doesn't seem worth it. I don't care about eye color or how sparkly your teeth are. I don't want to be showered in flowers and candies. But to know that you hold your beloved's heart; their soul and their desires! That in itself breeds lust!
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