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Post by Humppaporo on May 24, 2006 23:15:50 GMT 2
Socke: would love to read that I think, is it translated?
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Post by Socke on May 24, 2006 23:45:30 GMT 2
Socke: would love to read that I think, is it translated? I think so. Many books of him are translated and of this one there's at least a German translation ("Der heulende Müller"). But might also be available in Dutch, don't know about that.
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Post by A Kat Person on May 26, 2006 11:05:02 GMT 2
Just some random thoughts on this... Freedom is our natural state, what we are born with, until others take it away from us. The only reason a person is ever not free, is because someone else took their freedom. But, for some reason, it is human nature for us to wish to control each other and take each other's freedom. Most of us have a very hard time just letting each other be. We often think of governments as taking away our freedoms. Ironically, the very reason we have a government is for there to be an entity that prevents the taking of certain of our freedoms; at the expense of other freedoms! For example, when someone steals from you, he is taking your freedom to enjoy those items. When a government prevents the thief from stealing, it is taking that freedom away from the thief (the freedom to choose to steal). Therefore, it seems impossible to allow each and every person the full state of freedom they are born with! This dilemma, in one variation or another, repeats itself constantly in human existence. People constantly have to be denied choices in order to protect the choices of others. The question is, whose choices take precedence? This is at the source of so much struggle and debate, manifesting itself in all sorts of issues from abortion to drug legalization to the death penalty (although the latter is no longer an issue in Europe, is it! You guys are so civilized... )
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flame
Eagle
flame is dancing in the night,the shadows are really alive,the clan of the forest is singing with me
Posts: 117
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Post by flame on May 29, 2006 10:00:59 GMT 2
There is an old philosophical idea of anarchy which involves that anyone helps another but let the others be like they want to be, but nobody is allowed to harm each other. It´s like with communism, the construct in mind will work, but human destroys it often with his egoism.
C U
Flame
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Post by Humppaporo on May 29, 2006 10:49:08 GMT 2
I agree with you... This kind of anarchy is the ultimate model for me... but unfortunately I am also convinced that it will remain an utopia... humans aren't that civilized. It's so odd that when I say my ideal 'form of government' (in fact it's just without ) would be anarchy, many people look at me if I'm saying something dirty. Most people have even no idea what it is about. and unfortunately counts often: the lesser one knows about a subject, the more rigid and less changable their opinion is.
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flame
Eagle
flame is dancing in the night,the shadows are really alive,the clan of the forest is singing with me
Posts: 117
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Post by flame on May 29, 2006 12:04:30 GMT 2
@ Hummpa : Maybe the way of UNcivilizing again is a method. Not like this new american wannabe-native-indian-tribes who wants to reanimate roots they cant fully understand, but to go back to nature, protect and love her, feel the freedom of the wild and create a new way of being-together for coming Generations..... ?
For the Anarchy - I think that people do not know what it really means. They think at marauding hordes without respect for each other. But that is not the true ideal of "anarchos" which some old greeks developed, for what i know
C U
Flame
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Post by Black Fire on Jun 16, 2006 20:04:30 GMT 2
Before I post my opinion on the subject of Freedom, I want to say that its a great idea, and I'm all for it. First of all, I agree with Jarmo that freedom is more a virtual thing than a reality, although having the movement to go were you want, when you want, is not all that is encompassed by the term "Freedom". Freedom means you can say what you want to say, do what you want to do, AND go were you want to go. But unfortunately, to obtain the true definition of Freedom requires Anarchy, and that in itself would ironically defy the purpose of Freedom, despite the ability of free will, because the stronger individuals will be forcing their will upon the weaker, thus elminating their freedom. That is why "rules" are synomomous with Freedom...we need rules to protect the rights and freedoms of all. Furthermore...Freedom, technically, is non-existent. Being an American, and living under the reign of the Bush dynasty (not only do I have Bush as a President...but his brother is also the Governer of my state!), your rights and freedoms can be stripped from you at the drop of a hat. Government policies, such as Iminent (sp?) Domain, state that the government has the right to confusicate your property for whatever reason. In addition, our President has taken it upon himself to listen into our phone conversations in the name of "Homeland Security". That violates what our Constitution was initially created for. I could go on and on about the polotics of my country, but I'm sure that doesnt interest you guys . Anyways, what do I think about Freedom? I think it would be a good idea.
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flame
Eagle
flame is dancing in the night,the shadows are really alive,the clan of the forest is singing with me
Posts: 117
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Post by flame on Jun 16, 2006 20:41:27 GMT 2
Maybe freedom means nothing. Maybe it is mostly an intellectual vehicle to install a powerful urge to live and overlive the horror which is called life.The Deer is as long free as the pack of wolves will take his freedom and it loose the upcoming fight. ( This is not my full opinion, just a black box to put some thougts in it and shuffle it.... )
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Post by Black Fire on Jun 16, 2006 21:12:50 GMT 2
Thats somewhat the extent of what I was trying to say, Flame. Freedom can be taken away at the drop of a hat. Here is a qoute that I love...not about Freedom directly, its about Democracy, which is as close to Freedom as the government gets. "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch."
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Post by swiatowit on Jul 8, 2006 21:05:33 GMT 2
Democracy isn't as good as they say. Giving the power in hands of unlearned and unknowledgeable people is the suicide. There are some countries, where it's a good idea. But not in Asia, not i Africa and not in Middle/East Europe. Those people must have somoeone just like king or dictator. To love him, to die for him. He personalizes Fatherland. Dulce and decorte est pro Patria morte used to say The Ancient Romans. You know why Poland was killed by Russia, Germany and Osterreich? Polish gentry wanted to be free. But they didn't know what is freedom. They thought, that it was only Liberum veto (It's free, I don't allow)- one person could break proceedings of government by saying those words. The state slowly went to the agony, anarchy and demoralisation. Carice Catherine only took advantage. They called it democracy, too. That was an example of misunderstanding the meaning of 'freedom'.
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Post by cpuguru on Dec 6, 2006 0:03:26 GMT 2
Freedom is just a word, it doesn't grant the homeless salvation from the cold nor the impoverished a warm meal. Freedom is obviously good, but it is nothing without fulfilling the basic needs of the people.
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Post by Humppaporo on Dec 6, 2006 9:01:37 GMT 2
Freedom is just a word, it doesn't grant the homeless salvation from the cold nor the impoverished a warm meal. Freedom is obviously good, but it is nothing without fulfilling the basic needs of the people. You are right. But when you have to look all day for something to eat etc, you are not free too. Freedom is partly from outside, partly due to circumstances and partly in you yourself. About the outside part, today is Finnish independence day, so: Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivää!
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Post by Olli The Drunk Bear on Dec 6, 2006 14:47:41 GMT 2
I found an Exodus song which I am listening to at the moment and one of the lyrics goes "Freedom is just a dream when dying in the mud" Hope this can be a contribution
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uklfc
Eagle
Finn metal lover
Posts: 197
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Post by uklfc on Dec 6, 2006 15:52:14 GMT 2
Is there such a thing as freedom? In some way, even we think we are truly "free", there is always a constraint, there is always a limit, a barrier, visible or invisible. We may have truly free speech, but there is always a line to be seen as to what is correct and allowed to be said, and what isnt. There is censorship, that isnt freedom, we cant see something because someone has enforced a control on us, thereby changing what we could perceive as freedom, our freedom to choose as an individual what is appropriate for us, removing our freedom. It's a weird thing to try and explain, but no one is ever truly free. no one ever has true freedom, yet its something we all aspire to have. When we become free in one state, there is always a contraint there, a different thing, for us to become free of. Only when you have removed all of them can you be truly free, the rest of your life is spent in an eternal struggle (sorry if this sounds a bit mad, i was trying to find a context to word it within )
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Post by phoenixfire on Sept 23, 2007 11:47:01 GMT 2
There is no exact description of freedom, except of the ancient cliche "the ability to do whatever you wish without harming anything/anyone around you". It all depends on each and every person's mentality and ideology. Then, there is physical freedom, and spiritual freedom. I think very few people can have them both, entirely. And if it seems to me, for example, that someone I know more or less is completely free, maybe that person doesn't think the same about himself. We all need a certain amount and a certain type of freedom. So if someone describes something as freedom, someone else might not agree with that point of view.
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