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Post by teuton on Jun 6, 2006 22:20:34 GMT 2
Come over here to study in Holland... Here you get an amount of money from the state. If you finish your study within 10 years, you don't have to pay back. And you can also borrow an additional amount of money at very low interest, to pay back when you are finished the study. We have that as well. You get money from state if you fulfill certain criteria. The problem is exactly the borrowing of money and gettig into debt. Imagine, you graduate and are in debt with app. 20,000 Euros. How do you wanna pay that back if you don't get a job or start working with lower payment? A friend of mine is studying dentistry and she has to pay a lot of money for material and books already. Sometimes, it is app. 1,000 Euros per semester. Then, you have to make a living. How is that supposed to work out. Actually, that'sone of the facts that made me become a police officer. It doesn't strike me, still it's unfair to make poor students pay fees. The state should hunt for money where there is money - in the upper classes naimly - and not at the bottom where people have to turn around every cent twice before spending it.
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Post by twilightheart on Jun 6, 2006 22:57:33 GMT 2
That one support band of Korpiklaani in Augsburg (Helfahrt) got in trouble this weekend at a festival near here, because they have a RUNE in the sign of the band (and their banners). The police came and took away their band banner, and now Helfahrt get charged for using anticonstitutional symbols. Can you fucking believe it!?!? Runes are just part of history/ traditions. It´s really frightening how much people in Germany get limited in their freedom. Use of historical scripture is "anticonstitutional". Really sad. What a loser country!
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Post by Runenmeisterin on Jun 6, 2006 22:57:51 GMT 2
The problem is just that the rich people or big business have a stronger lobby. Politicians don't really see how they trigger a negative development which will cause a lot of problems in the future. Less people will go to university here because they cannot afford it but we do need people with a college education. Also, with the job situation right now, young people will try to get a job abroad anyway and might even leave Germany for their education.
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Post by teuton on Jun 6, 2006 23:03:45 GMT 2
You're right.
Most of the very (very, very²) wealthy and rich people are actually members of the parties, so that big companies still have bing influence on politics.
And I agree with your point of view concerning future. They try to give a positive feeling to their poeple and try to maintain a certain lifestly while they are at power. They don't care about what will happen afterwards.
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Post by hk50cc on Jun 6, 2006 23:21:21 GMT 2
it reminds me on a discussion we had here in berlin a few years ago: here in berlin we have a really good high-talented-school with old traditions, in which 'runes' is a subject and our old mayor wanted to forbit this subject, later he wanted to close this school, because he imputed to them right-wing extremism and rassism. but in real it was only one of this dirty political campaigns to show people that their gouverment do something against nazis...
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Post by twilightheart on Jun 7, 2006 1:15:21 GMT 2
here in berlin we have a really good high-talented-school with old traditions, in which 'runes' is a subject and our old mayor wanted to forbit this subject, later he wanted to close this school, because he imputed to them right-wing extremism and rassism. This is so low-minded. "The Nazis used it, so it must be forbidden." In the same way I could say: "The Nazis did breath and eat and drink. So eating, drinking and breathing should be forbidden. Because those who do it, are Nazis too." Do you see my point?
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Post by jarmo on Jun 7, 2006 15:52:56 GMT 2
If the rune symbol looks much like a swastika, then I'd think something like maybe it is good that it is possible to justify what the police did... But when I look on google pictures and on their website, it are just normal runes, which are very different in shape, so it's just madness... Like some new political party in Holland... A political party, which main points are lowering the legal age to have sex... and they want to legalize childporn... Such sick minds... By the way, their party is called: Neighbourly love (the dutch word means more like loving relatives and friends), Freedom and Diversity They are called pedo-party by the rest of Holland ;D (I have been discussing this with a friend, and he thought it might be some move to find pedophiles and to send them to court) ADDED: some other people made a political party as well... www.geenstijl.nl (A dutch website which is critical to almost everybody and everything). This party made a website on which you can tell them what they have to propose in parliament etc. *Fears that Holland will become a huge mess*
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Post by A Kat Person on Jun 16, 2006 5:44:26 GMT 2
That one support band of Korpiklaani in Augsburg (Helfahrt) got in trouble this weekend at a festival near here, because they have a RUNE in the sign of the band (and their banners). The police came and took away their band banner, and now Helfahrt get charged for using anticonstitutional symbols. Can you fucking believe it!?!? Runes are just part of history/ traditions. It´s really frightening how much people in Germany get limited in their freedom. Use of historical scripture is "anticonstitutional". Really sad. What a loser country! What - - are you serious?! I'm am kind of shocked. Funny, I have been thinking for the last few years that the U.S. is becoming less free lately - less than the European countries, at any rate. Is this just a case of "grass is greener on the other side?" Or does this happen in Germany only, not any other Euro countries? What exactly are "anticonstitutional symbols", anyway? It sounds like they mean anything that they think reminds them of a swastika?!?! Is this routine, or an isolated incident? What other examples of limitations on freedom are there in Germany? Also... someone once told me that in Germany there is some kind of child welfare type bureau that takes children away from parents for seemingly minor things, such as the child being disobedient... is this really true, or was someone pulling my leg??? I'm sorry for all the questions, I am just massively curious about what life is like in other countries... any education much appreciated...
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Post by A Kat Person on Jun 16, 2006 5:51:25 GMT 2
here in berlin we have a really good high-talented-school with old traditions, in which 'runes' is a subject and our old mayor wanted to forbit this subject, later he wanted to close this school, because he imputed to them right-wing extremism and rassism. This is so low-minded. "The Nazis used it, so it must be forbidden." In the same way I could say: "The Nazis did breath and eat and drink. So eating, drinking and breathing should be forbidden. Because those who do it, are Nazis too." Do you see my point? Wow... it is like there is a massive national PHOBIA.... that's crazy. Well, we even see hints of that here sometimes. For example, one of the most common arguments I hear against vegetarianism is that Hitler was a vegetarian! So idiotic, but this is actually said with a straight face.
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Post by Runenmeisterin on Jun 16, 2006 12:39:06 GMT 2
The situation is kinda strange here in Germany. Anti-constitutional symbols are normally symbols the nazis used for their purposes. It normally doesn't refer to all runes or symbols just to the ones that were "abused" by the nazis or are mainly linked to NS ideology (like the swastika). That is the law. You can make out of it what you like.
If I use runes in public, I would try not to use runes that have a nazi connection. Even though they had another meaning originally, they have been so much raped and abused that I don't wanna use anything like that in public.
The problem in Germany is that we leave the field of Germanic history to nazi idiots. The universitities who do good scientific work in the field are not too much in the public awareness. The history of the Germanic tribes had been abused so much by the nazis that authorities after the war kinda made a taboo out of this era. But taboos mainly result in the opposite. I'd prefer an open and balanced discussion about these periods of our history. This includes normal units about the German pre History in schools.
Nowadays, the discussion is unfortunately coined by nazis and some weird neo-pagans, who romanticize everything that comes their way. And often representing a picture of history that is pretty close to what the nazis propagated - maybe without actually being right-winged. The myth of tall, blonde, and free Germanic heros fighting against the Romans and later the Saxon tribes against Christianity is pretty one-sided.
But to come back to today. Some people might call it a national phobia but I don't see it this way. We do have a terrible past and we should face it. I see it as my personal responsibility to try to prevent that anything like this will ever happen again. At the same time, I am young enough to say I am free of guilt. Actually, I think Germany with the help of the allied forces has done a relatively good job bringing the cruelties of the past to public awareness and into discussion. In many countries, the horrors of the past are tabooed or denied. Countries don't like to face their mistakes.
I was always proud that my country didn't have a patriotic ideology. I felt as if the horrors of WW II have helped us to overcome narrow-minded national thinking. Patriotism is opium for the people to make them follow political leaders and their political goals. Leaders try to create an atmosphere where people feel they are part of one big thing. The nazis called it "Volksgemeinschaft" (community of the German people) which was an extreme form. But even democratic countries like the US use patriotism to keep people quiet and make them follow leaders e.g. into wars. Patriotism and the creation of a "national community" is just a means to keep people stupid. It creates two poles of "we" and "the others". If this is lead to an extreme, "the others" are the enemy and have to be fought against.
That is why I reject nationalism and patriotism. Still, I do love my country. But this is more because I love the village I grew up in, the forests I walk in and the green hills I watch every day. This is a feeling of roots, home and belonging somewhere. It has nothing to do with state borders and it certainly doesn't mean that someone from somewhere else is worth less.
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Post by hk50cc on Jun 16, 2006 14:06:45 GMT 2
...That is why I reject nationalism and patriotism. Still, I do love my country... *reminds me on* now during wm 2006 we have a new discussion about patriotism because of this germany-fags at our cars etc. isn't it normal that people stand by their country and be proud of it and their national team at such a high event like wm 2006? so why other counties and some german politican are afraid of 'new-german-patriotism'? (-we don't want the world, only the world cup -.- *gomen*-) ... . ano... i forgot what i want to write down
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Post by Socke on Jun 16, 2006 14:16:00 GMT 2
isn't it normal that people stand by their country and be proud of it and their national team at such a high event like wm 2006? Don't know... I actually have never felt something like "pride" for the country I live in. I always see it like I'm accidently born here, could have been somewhere else as well, let it be Portugal, Canada or wherever. So why should I be proud when someone who accidently has the same nationality in his pass wins any football game? Never understood that...
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Post by teuton on Jun 16, 2006 17:49:40 GMT 2
That is why I reject nationalism and patriotism. Still, I do love my country. But this is more because I love the village I grew up in, the forests I walk in and the green hills I watch every day. This is a feeling of roots, home and belonging somewhere. It has nothing to do with state borders and it certainly doesn't mean that someone from somewhere else is worth less. Why do you reject patriotism? It is one of the best things you can do, loving your country and thus upporting it in any way. Without people who love their country, a country itself goes down...
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Post by Humppaporo on Jun 16, 2006 18:29:02 GMT 2
Socke and Runenmeisterin... very wise words both! I agree in this with you Socke. I feel the same way. The world isn't about countries and nationalism, but about humans and friendship, trust, warmth and happiness. Imo borders and races have nothing to do with it. One cannot help to be born in a certain country or in a certain race. Of course someone can feel related to, or attracted to a country or race... but still, one individual isn't the other... I feel often attracted to a culture, or a landscape type, but that doesn't make a people better in a total... I just like individuals...
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Post by SkogRoar on Jun 17, 2006 12:20:26 GMT 2
Agree with humppa and socke At Hungary, radical nationalism has realy great power over the way of thinking. In fact it is totaly accepted, that you show antisemitism, racism (the country has a great number of gipsy ethnic), and other forms. You can wear a swastika, an "ss" sign, or other international and hungarian radical right-wing symbols, you just dont get punished. If you are a neo-nazi, the worst thing that can happen to you, is that they send you home, while trying to get in to a jew fest. If someon like me doesnt appreciate this "patriotism", then he or she said to be a traitor. Because i didnt feel like i was decent to born here (my parent arent from Hungary as well) my "pride" for my contry should only come from the fact, that i love the place and the people here, wich i dont. I never wore national symbols, despite the fact, that symbols get more and more insignificant, ad they only become a reason to pick at someone. I never felt a grip in my heart, when the Hungarian football team listened to the anthem...i hate soccer as well. I just dont understand whats the big fuss about nationalism, or not accepting non-nationaliasm... Ohh, and big news from Hungary: SCHOOL WAS OVER YESTERDAY!!
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