|
Post by hk50cc on Jun 17, 2006 12:40:18 GMT 2
isn't it normal that people stand by their country and be proud of it and their national team at such a high event like wm 2006? Don't know... I actually have never felt something like "pride" for the country I live in. I always see it like I'm accidently born here, could have been somewhere else as well, let it be Portugal, Canada or wherever. So why should I be proud when someone who accidently has the same nationality in his pass wins any football game? Never understood that... ano... it's was only an answer put in a rethorical question for the 'question' about the reason why germans now buy so many flags, be proud of germany etc... and althought you never felt something like pride, other feel pride (((without being nazis etc.))) ano... i forgot what i want to write down i also want to say that i'm really impressed that such an event like wm is more successful as this 'du bist deutschland'-campaign ^^
|
|
|
Post by twilightheart on Jun 18, 2006 14:13:34 GMT 2
Also... someone once told me that in Germany there is some kind of child welfare type bureau that takes children away from parents for seemingly minor things, such as the child being disobedient... is this really true, or was someone pulling my leg??? No, that`s true. It´s called "Jugendamt" and they have the authority to take your child away from you. There always dramatic reports about it in TV, when children are taken away from their parents for such minor reasons, as you call it. If your neighbour doesn`t like you, he just calls that bureau and tells them, you are not able to handle your children, and they have to check this then. And until they found out the opposite, they take the children away. So children can be taken away from poor parents (if your neighbour sees, that the child wears the same dirty clothes a second day or something) and just all kinds of reasons. The sad thing about this is, the children are NOT happier or more loved where they get after this. Their life normally is ruined. It doesn`t happen all the time of course, but it DID happen several times, and it was always a tragic thing. Most of the cases resultet in highly unfair decisions. P.S. Apart from that, about the question why people use Germany-flags without being proud of Germany: it has to do with SPORTS, not with politics. Many men are very keen on soccer here, and of course they want their team to win, in a SPORTS-sense, so they will show all symbols that show, they want the German team to win. Apart from that it´s possible that the same people do NOT agree with the politics in the country. Most people just separate sports and politics... that`s all.
|
|
|
Post by hk50cc on Jun 18, 2006 14:37:41 GMT 2
Most people just separate sports and politics... that`s all. but some does not: like the iranian president and his opponents the iranian president wanted to visit germany when iran should pass preliminary round, so there should be demonstartions and protests during iran-matches and also our bundeskanzlerin merkel said officially that she does not want him here but she can't forbit this entry... so such sport-events are often also political explosive like olympic games 1972 in munich
|
|
|
Post by Socke on Jun 18, 2006 16:38:22 GMT 2
and althought you never felt something like pride, other feel pride (((without being nazis etc.))) Well, feeling "pride" for a country is really something I'd call retarded - due to the reasons I mentioned above. As humppaporo said, you can feel related to a country or an area, you can feel attracted to it, no matter if it's the country you were born in or live in or not. I think there is nothing wrong with it when people say that they love living here, that they like the country, and I think there is also nothing wrong with it when I feel attracted to another country than the one I was raised in and the one I'm currently living in. But "pride" is the wrong word in every case, that's only something you can feel when you (as a person) have done something or contributed to something you can be proud of... However, when it comes to football games or whatever, I'm sure most people don't even think about anything, it's like "I'm German/French/insert any country, so that team has to win!"
|
|
|
Post by Runenmeisterin on Jun 18, 2006 19:03:41 GMT 2
A few decades ago, a German chancellor was asked if he loved his country, and his answer was: I love my wife. ;-)
I agree that there are values much more important than national pride. I have friends in different countries and I feel I have more in common with them than with some 60-year-old German voting for the Conservative party and being afraid of everything that is not black-red-golden.
I never really understand why I should be proud of a country which is more or less an abstract political thing. I love the area where I come from, many people who live there and I get a very special feeling if I walk in my home's nature. But this has nothing to do with pride. It's a great countryside and I am deeply rooted here because my family has lived here for centuries and centuries. But how can I be proud on something which is not my personal achievement.
Patriotism is making people blind towards mistakes and problems in their own country. It is just a means to keep people stupidly happy and quiet.
|
|
|
Post by Socke on Jun 18, 2006 19:51:27 GMT 2
being afraid of everything that is not black-red-golden. That seems to be a common phenomenon. My grandma is really afraid of everything when I'm travelling to abroad. She has absoutely no idea about the countries I'm going to, where they are and what it looks like there but she's absolutely afraid. For her it's like there is Germany, here we are all save and if we cross the border there are murderers everywhere. Sometimes really unbelievable how someone can think like that...
|
|
|
Post by Runenmeisterin on Jun 18, 2006 20:28:09 GMT 2
That's a different generation I guess. People nowadays travel more. My grandma on my dad's side had never been to another country and I know what you mean. But my grandpa on my mom's side is a German from Romania. He has seen a lot and he is pretty cool about these things.
|
|
|
Post by Frekia on Jun 20, 2006 14:26:26 GMT 2
Also... someone once told me that in Germany there is some kind of child welfare type bureau that takes children away from parents for seemingly minor things, such as the child being disobedient... is this really true, or was someone pulling my leg??? No, that`s true. It´s called "Jugendamt" and they have the authority to take your child away from you. There always dramatic reports about it in TV, when children are taken away from their parents for such minor reasons, as you call it. If your neighbour doesn`t like you, he just calls that bureau and tells them, you are not able to handle your children, and they have to check this then. And until they found out the opposite, they take the children away. So children can be taken away from poor parents (if your neighbour sees, that the child wears the same dirty clothes a second day or something) and just all kinds of reasons. The sad thing about this is, the children are NOT happier or more loved where they get after this. Their life normally is ruined. It doesn`t happen all the time of course, but it DID happen several times, and it was always a tragic thing. Most of the cases resultet in highly unfair decisions. Wow, that's an interresting story you're telling. I have to add something here: 1. They can't take a child away for minor reasons. Normaly they have to call the family court and wait for the decision. They can only take a child away if it's to dangerous to let it one more minute live with their parents. (i.e. if the parents beat their child or if the child is sexually abused) 2. Thoose TV reports can normaly be seen in the typical stupefy-TV like RTL. They are like BILD with moving pictures, only wanting sensation reports 3. Where did you get the fact that the childs life doesn't get better? Children always love their parents, no matter what they've done to them. But that doesn't mean that they would be happier if they would stay with them. I know a lot of examples for what happens if a child is not taken away from thoose parents. as I work in a psychiatrie for kids and adolescents. And they all are thankful that they finally got the possibility to escape from their family, but still a lot of them don't know what to feel about their parents, who hurt them but still are their parents. And you even have to force some of them to get away from their alcoholic mother. And that's not because they would have a better life with her, but because they feel responsible for her. Sometimes they even think it's their fault that their parents behave like this.
|
|
|
Post by twilightheart on Jun 20, 2006 19:55:48 GMT 2
Frekia, that`s of course possible that I believe too much in these TV stories. You surely have better insight into reality with your job. It´s just that I absolutely can NOT believe that any mother/father could ever hurt his/her child. It´s so unimaginable for me (also I don´t know anyone personally who would ever do so). So if someone says "this mother beats her child every day" and the mother (in TV or whereever) says "It´s not true. I would NEVER beat my child." then I would believe that mother in first place, you know. Because I really really can`t imagine anyone using physical violence to anyone so close (can imagine this in wars of course, but NOT towards someone you normally love very very most in this world.... and your children ARE the ones you naturally love MOST beyond everything).
P.S. What about that case, when they took the children away from the parents because the parents were not intelligent enough (just from the grade of education)? I´m sure this one was NOT faked in any way. Do you know, if they got their children back in the end?
|
|
|
Post by Frekia on Jun 20, 2006 22:43:44 GMT 2
Sadly this happens more often than we want to belive.
I don't know anything about this case. Where have you heard about this?
|
|
|
Post by twilightheart on Jun 20, 2006 22:45:42 GMT 2
I don't know anything about this case. Where have you heard about this? In TV, as you may have guessed. But why should someone fake such stories?
|
|
|
Post by Frekia on Jun 21, 2006 21:41:28 GMT 2
I don't know why, but it's obviously faked. It's impossible to take children away for such reasons. If the Jugendamt would be allowed to take children away from parents who can't count till ten, then more than half of the children in this country wouldn't see their parents anymore.
|
|
|
Post by Runenmeisterin on Jun 21, 2006 22:42:22 GMT 2
Sad but true. There has been a tv movie about a case like this. I guess this is just the typical polemic stuff. I am sure people at the Jugendamt are just humans and can make mistakes but some cases in the media seem to be portrayed one-sided and blown up. But hey, there are institutions like that in other countries as well. Look at all these American tv shows where social workers show up and make trouble, e.g. ER or Judging Amy (yes, I admit, I watch the girliest show ever). The portrayal in the media has to be handled with care.
|
|
|
Post by A Kat Person on Jun 24, 2006 1:28:30 GMT 2
A few decades ago, a German chancellor was asked if he loved his country, and his answer was: I love my wife. ;-) That is so cool!!! I agree that there are values much more important than national pride. I have friends in different countries and I feel I have more in common with them than with some 60-year-old German voting for the Conservative party and being afraid of everything that is not black-red-golden. Totally agreed... you just described many Americans there as well, just replace the "black-red-golden" with "white and Christian"! I never really understand why I should be proud of a country which is more or less an abstract political thing. I love the area where I come from, many people who live there and I get a very special feeling if I walk in my home's nature. But this has nothing to do with pride. It's a great countryside and I am deeply rooted here because my family has lived here for centuries and centuries. But how can I be proud on something which is not my personal achievement. What you describe there - about loving the area where you're from, feeling deeply rooted there etc. that is what I've always thought of when I think of "national pride" of the good kind - maybe that's my mistake, just a matter of semantics! But what you describe, it sounds so nice to me, I've never felt it. I did not live long enough in Russia or Ukraine to feel it for those places particularly, and I feel too different from most Americans to feel it for America. I guess I have a feeling of comfortable familiarity with New York City in particular, since I basically grew up here (and it's quite different from the rest of the country!) but in reality I'm sick of it and I can't wait to move away. I'm far, far happier when I'm traveling to new places and discovering new landscapes, new cities, new people! Patriotism is making people blind towards mistakes and problems in their own country. It is just a means to keep people stupidly happy and quiet. That's for sure!!! That is exactly what is destroying America - but the so-called "patriots" say it's the other way around, that those of us who criticize America are "unpatriotic" and are destroying the country. Of course, this country is divided just about equally 50/50 between those "patriots" and those like me who are against that blind patriotism... hence the near-ties in the last two elections... it's a mess.
|
|
|
Post by A Kat Person on Jun 24, 2006 1:42:56 GMT 2
Sad but true. There has been a tv movie about a case like this. I guess this is just the typical polemic stuff. I am sure people at the Jugendamt are just humans and can make mistakes but some cases in the media seem to be portrayed one-sided and blown up. But hey, there are institutions like that in other countries as well. Look at all these American tv shows where social workers show up and make trouble, e.g. ER or Judging Amy (yes, I admit, I watch the girliest show ever). The portrayal in the media has to be handled with care. Twilightheart and Frekia, wow, thanks for the replies to my question - seeing your discussion I guess it's not so clear-cut, and it's difficult to know what really goes on! That makes sense, it's not so clear-cut here either. We in the U.S. do of course have a "Bureau of Child Welfare (BCW)" but I've heard of extreme cases of both overzealousness AND total bungling by this bureau. For example: Here around this area, New York and New Jersey, every once in a while there is a huge story in the newspapers about a child who is murdered by an abusive parent. The story unfolds of absolutely horrifying physical and sexual abuse, neglect, starvation, etc. and how the BCW "failed to see obvious signs" and to take the child away. Of course, everyone believes all this without question; but then again we never hear any other sides to the story. But, there is the obvious result of a dead child in the end... so it's tempting to believe the rest of it! On the other hand, I've heard of cases in the other extreme (for some reason usually in California) where, for example, their local child protection agency takes away a child from his parents because they refused to let the child get medicated with Ritalin against the request of the school! Again, it's the media, I don't know what the truth is - but if it's true, that is equally horrifying
|
|